Freethought & Rationalism Archive

DarkBronzePlant · 03-22-2002, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Atticus_Finch:

... I asserted, and still assert, a very limited point. That is, atheism, as defined by me, denies the existence of god or the supernatural. (I know a number of you state that atheist only deny that there is proof of god, etc. I think that is more properly defined as agnosticism but it is not my job to give you a name). I choose a definition simply for the purpose of making sure we were all talking about the same thing...

Atticus_Finch,

I think you ought to leave out the "denies the existence of the supernatural" part. While most atheists probably wouldn't believe in the supernatural, I don't think that's a required attribute to being an atheist.

Jack the Bodiless · 03-22-2002, 07:35 AM

This discussion appears tobe going nowhere fast.

Let's just summarize where we're at:

We have (finally) established that atheism is NOT the certainty that there is no God, but the belief that there is no God. In that respect, atheism is comparable to aSantaism (the belief that there is no Santa Claus).

I cannot prove that there is no Santa. I admit that it is possible that there is a Santa. But I don't believe it. I am an aSantaist.

I cannot prove that there is no God. I admit that it is possible that there is a God. But I don't believe it. I am an atheist.

Maybe we can now move on...

However, I think I speak for most of us here when I make a distinction between "God" and "the God of the Bible", and point out that "the God of the Bible" definitely does not exist. This is due to Biblical contradictions, the falsehood of the Genesis creation account, and so on. Most Christians actually agree with this position, as they do not consider the Bible to be inerrant: they worship a God who resembles the Biblical God to varying degrees.

If this argument does move on, it will soon be necessary for the theist side to define "God".

Meanwhile, having declared that the Biblical God does not exist, I will define the more general God which I don't believe exists (but which might exist) as "a supernatural Universe-shaping entity possessing intelligence".

Samhain · 03-22-2002, 07:36 AM

Yes, atheism is a very simple definition...

Atheism: one who does not believe in the existence of a god(s).

MOJO-JOJO · 03-22-2002, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless:
Meanwhile, having declared that the Biblical God does not exist, I will define the more general God which I don't believe exists (but which might exist) as "a supernatural Universe-shaping entity possessing intelligence".

And it all comes down to the question, "What does the evidence truly point to?"

(1) God created Man, or
(2) Man created God

I used to "believe" #1, but the evidence has "shown me" #2.

Philosoft · 03-22-2002, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Atticus_Finch:

Most of the criticisms of my posts misunderstand the basic premise. That is not a criticism of you who criticized, so let me attempt to clarify.

I did not attempt to make any positive statement about the logical consistency of belief in god. Therefore, I did not respond to the posts which addressed that issue. I asserted, and still assert, a very limited point. That is, atheism, as defined by me, denies the existence of god or the supernatural. (I know a number of you state that atheist only deny that there is proof of god, etc. I think that is more properly defined as agnosticism but it is not my job to give you a name).

Here you must assert that the concept "God" is logically consistent in order to maintain that there is something the atheist is actively denying. It makes no sense to assert that an atheist is denying a logically inconsistent concept.

Quote:

I choose a definition simply for the purpose of making sure we were all talking about the same thing.

Well it should be clear by now that you have chosen a definition that is excessively limiting.

Quote:

My limited point was that if you don't know how the universe came to exist or that it has always existed then it is logically inconsistent to deny one possible explanation for its existence. I do not assert that this rules out other possible explanations or a preference for others. One can speculate that the universe was created by the collision of two universes or that it has always existed but I am aware of no proof for either proposition. You can say "We don't know that yet" but that should not rule out the possible existence of god as the first cause.

<img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />
Tell it to the metaphysical naturalists.

Quote:

I have been accused of excepting God's eternal existence from my own logical argument. Read my posts carefully and in context and you will see that the logical argument related only to the internal logic of atheism. Since I do not accept the proposition that all phenonmenon must have a material, non-supernatural explantion it is not internally illogical for me to believe in God.

Tell us what your premises are and we can judge the internal consistency of your logic.

Quote:

Finally, although there were few serious answers to my question regarding what it would take for you to believe in god, I did give much thought overnight to the question of what would cause me to abandon belief. I am a Christian. The fundamental basis for my belief is the life, claims, death and resurrection of Christ. If that were shown to be untrue then I would have a serious problem with my Christian faith.

So you accept the details of Christ's life as a priori true? As axiomatic? I rather hope you don't assert that the totality of the evidence is in favor of Jesus' divinity.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 03-22-2002, 09:59 AM

Sodomite,

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Sodomite:


2) Atheism is a statement regarding belief in god--we have none. It isn't a positive statement asserting that god does not exist.

You realize however that this is complete hogwash.
I find it amazing how many atheist hide behind the definition of athiesm.

No matter how you look at it atheists claim the truth value of the statement 'There is a God' is false.

Attempting to candy-coat this does not allieviate the burden of proof placed squarely on the shoulders of the person making this statement.

Thoughts and comments,

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

sir drinks-a-lot · 03-22-2002, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas:
Sodomite,

You realize however that this is complete hogwash.
I find it amazing how many atheist hide behind the definition of athiesm.

No matter how you look at it atheists claim the truth value of the statement 'There is a God' is false.

Attempting to candy-coat this does not allieviate the burden of proof placed squarely on the shoulders of the person making this statement.

Thoughts and comments,

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

SOMMS,

The one spewing hogwash is you, not sodomite. Why is our definition of Atheism so painfully hard for you to comprehend? It is simple; an Atheist will not affirm the statement "There is a God". That is it. It says nothing at all about what the Atheist thinks is the possibility of god(s) existing.

I'm convinced that David Letterman is wearing a white shirt right now. Do you agree to my statement? If not, does it mean you're convinced he isn't wearing a white shirt? Does this also confuse you?

MOJO-JOJO · 03-22-2002, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas:
You realize however that this is complete hogwash.

Only to silly myth-believing christians with metallic sonatas.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 03-22-2002, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sir drinks-a-lot:

It is simple; an Atheist will not affirm the statement "There is a God".

This is agnosticism...not atheism.

It's quite simple really:

If you claim 'God exists' = false, you're an atheist.
If you claim 'God exists' = ? (or won't affirm it), you're an agnostic.

You can try mixing it up as much as you want, but that doesn't change your relationship to the statement 'God exists'.

Thoughts and comments welcomed,

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Philosoft · 03-22-2002, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas:

You realize however that this is complete hogwash.
I find it amazing how many atheist hide behind the definition of athiesm.

Well, we're not doing a very good job if you can still see us.

Quote:

No matter how you look at it atheists claim the truth value of the statement 'There is a God' is false.

This statement only has a potential truth value for a specific definition of "God" (your capitalization suggests you specify the Judeo-Christian god). Until you can provide such a definition, this statement is equivalent to "There is a skibble." I am a borderline noncognitivist - I hold that the statement "There is a God" is essentially meaningless. I am also, by extension, an atheist.

Quote:

Attempting to candy-coat this does not allieviate the burden of proof placed squarely on the shoulders of the person making this statement.

No, but getting your logic straight does.

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03-22-2002, 07:35 AM	#102
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	This discussion appears tobe going nowhere fast. Let's just summarize where we're at: We have (finally) established that atheism is NOT the certainty that there is no God, but the belief that there is no God. In that respect, atheism is comparable to aSantaism (the belief that there is no Santa Claus). I cannot prove that there is no Santa. I admit that it is possible that there is a Santa. But I don't believe it. I am an aSantaist. I cannot prove that there is no God. I admit that it is possible that there is a God. But I don't believe it. I am an atheist. Maybe we can now move on... However, I think I speak for most of us here when I make a distinction between "God" and "the God of the Bible", and point out that "the God of the Bible" definitely does not exist. This is due to Biblical contradictions, the falsehood of the Genesis creation account, and so on. Most Christians actually agree with this position, as they do not consider the Bible to be inerrant: they worship a God who resembles the Biblical God to varying degrees. If this argument does move on, it will soon be necessary for the theist side to define "God". Meanwhile, having declared that the Biblical God does not exist, I will define the more general God which I don't believe exists (but which might exist) as "a supernatural Universe-shaping entity possessing intelligence".

03-22-2002, 07:36 AM	#103
Samhain Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 7,735	Yes, atheism is a very simple definition... Atheism: one who does not believe in the existence of a god(s).

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