Brian63

It's hard to explain my exact views on this without coming off as completely arrogant and condescending, but I'll give it a shot.

For me, I consider the idea that God exists to be somewhat silly. Regarding Christianity in particular, if all I had ever read relating to Christianity was the Bible, I would consider it downright ludicrous, and that anyone that believed it was actually literally true to be deserving of their own padded room.

The only reason that I invest any time/energy into studying religion (and Christianity in particular) is that I know that many many extremely bright people believe in it. The problem for me is that I can't figure out why they do. The Bible contradicts what I perceive in reality around me (the supernatural and remarkable elements of the Bible anyway). I can't really help but to feel that people that believe it are actually dumber than me. However, when I actually think about all the smart people that are Christians, I realize that my feelings are misguided. I cannot help but to have those feelings though.

Are there any large groups of people that you believe hold not just wrong views, but views that are downright silly? Do you believe that people that believe in a flat-Earth are just plain wacko? If so, then you would seem to believe that you are smarter than they are. We can all find groups of people (I believe) that we consider to be just plain dumber than we are, and completely out-of-touch with reality with respect to certain beliefs.

While I consider the existence of God to be more likely than a flat-Earth, I still can't help but to feel that believers of either are just plain silly. Consciously, I know that it is not true though.

I hope that helps to make it clearer, and again I did my best to not offend, but I understand if it came off as completely insulting.

Brian

Albion

I hope you don't have a problem with that. It does get tiresome when you spend your life trying to be a good citizen (or noncitizen in my case, but you'll understand what I'm saying) and get blamed for every last thing that goes wrong in society. Or get told that in the unlikely event we do anything good, it's nothing to do with us but it's God working through us to show that even atheists aren't beyond help if they'd only become Christians. Or have to listen to a presidential candidate say that he doesn't consider atheists to be citizens or patriots. I don't particularly care if nobody on these boards likes me - that's not why I'm here, I have friends and family in real life if I want to spend time around people who like me - but that isn't the same as asking that people don't consider me a danger to society just because I'm not a Christian.

No, of course you haven't. But you're beginning to see yourself what a totally frustrating enterprise it is to engage young-Earth creationists or even old-Earth creationists for that matter. I mean, if I remember right, it was education that made the difference to you as far as your opinions on evolution go. If you hadn't done that biology at college (or anything else at college), where do you think you'd be now as far as your scientific opinions are concerned? Dealing with the attitude of "you're wrong, I know you're wrong about science because the Bible says <fill in creationist quote of choice> and because Kent Hovind SAYS so!!!" is just mind-wrenching. You're dealing with people who are revelling in ignorance and hostile to critical thinking. You bet we need to vent! And this is as good a place as any because unlike most of the rest of life, this board isn't Christian dominated.

Atheists get hounded by theists because Christians have this mandate to convert the rest of us and because they think this should be a Christian country populated by Christian people living Christian lives or God will look upon it with disfavour. I can't tell you the number of times I've been told by Christians that education tends to be associated with atheism so they're proud - PROUD! - to be uneducated, because God loves people who will be fools for God, not those who seek to improve their minds. I've been told that the search for knowledge for its own sake is driven by Satan. I've been told that it isn't necessary for people to learn to read because their pastor can tell them everything they need to know, and they're less likely to be led astray by the words of the Great Adversary. I'm sorry, but that attitude terrifies me.


Geo, on the whole people don't like people who are different. And most of the Christians on boards like this are the less moderate ones, just as the infidels on these boards are probably the more vocal ones. There's very little in the way of points of contact between that fundamentalist mindset and the mindset of atheists and secular humanists who think education and learning are important. And when you come up against the sort of arguments regularly trotted out by young-Earthers, it's hard to think they're not stupid. The things they say don't stand up to any sort of genuine enquiry, and they seem completely unperturbed by that problem. If Ken Ham says it's so, it's so; no need to research, no need to look it up for myself, no need to think about the implications - Ken Ham said it's so, and it's so.

Strawberry

I am here mostly because Christianity and the practice thereof have caused me lasting emotional wounds that impact the way I deal with most day-to-day situations and relationships, whether or not those situations and/or relationships have anything to do with the God issue. I don't like that. I don't like not being able to trust my family and friends because I'm scared that what comes out of their mouths may, yet again, turn out to be something I invest myself in and then later discover to be intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually bankrupt. Some of these are people I met after de-converting, who have never pressed me to adhere to xtianity or anything else I am really opposed to, so I don't have any logical basis for not trusting them. But having to entirely rebuild my sense of self-worth independent of people and a system I once thought valued me as a person (rather than "one more soul for Jesus") really shook that sense of trust, and it's going to be a long haul to get any semblance of it back.

I don't like flying off the handle, to use a cliche, every time religion is mentioned, and I don't like being angry and bitter. In order to get over those feelings, as well as those of betrayal, isolation, and frustration, I find that I need to be able to interact on some level with people who support and understand why I feel the way I do. Failing to find that in real life, as most of my admittedly angsty, artsy friends are doing new age "spiritual questing" and take Ouija boards and Tarot cards as their personal answers for everything (?), I've turned here.

I'd rather get bitterness and sarcasm out here, on-line, than treat my friends like shit because I don't have any other outlet for my religious/spiritual pain and loneliness.

Coming from fundamental xtianity as many of us here have is a long process that often involves being cut off from any type of personal support system for a long period of time. The people I thought I could trust suddenly weren't interested in helping me deal with my emotional crisis, and they definitely didn't act very Christian With A Capital C. Not my parents, extended family, church, school friends, youth group, friends from previous schools, boyfriend. Not one person actually tried to help, not even in the name of Jesus.

As has been stated before, it doesn't matter to me whether xtians like me or not. I've suffered because of relationships with almost all xtians I've met since about age 12 or 13. Maybe you could explain to me why I should like xtians even though I've been hurt in almost every interaction with one that I can remember.

I know I sound "haughty." But the pain caused by xtianity won't go away. You're asking me to validate myself for being skeptical of theists? Call me cynical, but I find that awfully callous.

[ November 08, 2002: Message edited by: Strawberry ]</p>

Heathen Dawn

Christians don't deserve sympathy for their beliefs any more than flat-earthers do. They both suffer from the same problem of not being up-to-date.

We're not asking Christians to like us, we're just asking them to be modern and leave their silly outdated myths.

Jamie_L

GeoTheo:

What others have said about online discussion boards are true. They attract people intent on debate and arguing. With the benefit of anonymity and the security of operating through miles of internet backbone, people often become more beligerent than normal, letting down their inhibitions and letting fly all the stuff that they are too polite to say IRL. Especially when discussing a hot-button topic. It's a little like people in traffic jams. They shout and scream and make wild gestures and cut people off. But get them out of the car and into a room with the same people, and they're likely to be nice, calm, rational people.

The problem you describe in the OP is more aptly stated thusly: Atheists are upset that people pre-judge them based on their atheism. A Christian may treat you politely and enjoy your company, but upon discovering your atheism, they suddenly treat you much differently. It's like the white mother and father talking pleasantly about the boy coming to pick up their daughter, and then suddenly becoming outraged when they discover he is black.

You are absolutely right in that people should be judged by their behavior, and everyone has a right to turn their nose up at someone who treats them with disrespect. However, it's not acceptable for people to make assumptions about my personality and behavior just because I'm an atheist.

As a general rule, I assume everyone I meet is a theist (usually a Christian) until I discover otherwise. However, I don't judge everyone I meet to be an irrational religious zealot. I give people the benefit of the doubt until they give me reason to think ill of them. I just ask for the same courtesy.

Jamie

Vorkosigan

Geo, you're in our house, where we can let our hair down. The "disrespect" you see is people here treating Christianity the same way we treat any other ridiculous, noxious belief system, with laughter.

Out in public I am the soul of propriety when it comes to Christianity, especially since my son goes to a Christian school. But your religion is so stupid that when I am being myself, I just can't bring myself to respect it, anymore than I can respect astrology, pryamidology, or voodoo. They are all identically irrational, Geo.

Vorkosigan

HelenM

I feel like that happened to me. It's one of the reasons I'm here.

I think that to some extent I had unreasonable expectations. Or, even if they were reasonable, they weren't helpful to me in that, when they weren't met, it was very difficult for me.

It wasn't just Christians who disappointed me so the extent to which 'Christianity' is 'to blame' is a somewhat complex thing to try to analyze, imo. Just as each atheist - or nontheist - has their own approach to life, the same is somewhat true of Christians, even though it may appear to many people here that Christians are too hemmed in by authoritarian structures and dogma to be allowed much individuality .

Anyway - as I've said before - I do very much appreciate the support I've received through these boards, which of course has been mostly from non-Christians, since most people here aren't Christians!

take care
Helen

Opera Nut

Strawberry, you should read my thread called "Xtianity is sanctioned emotional abuse".

I had some Xtians actually show Xtian love to me when I got suicidal & was unemployed and had a falling out with my church, but unfortunately that person was the preacher's wife and she didn't have the power to do anything -- her power mad hubby did.

HelenM

How come?

Helen

galiel

Helen, I think one of the reasons you are treated with respect is because you respect this as a sanctuary for freethinkers, one of the few places we are neither harassed for our beliefs nor intimidated into silence. You don't come barging in here determined to discredit us, the things we believe in or to suggest that there is no room in the world for people of diverse beliefs.

This board welcomes theists. I don't know of any theist board, anywhere, that extends the same welcome. Unfortunately, some overconfident theists, who by nature of their beliefs have not been exposed to other ideas, let alone direct challenges to their own, come in here intending to convert, proselytize, or "debunk" rational beliefs. When they don't succeed, they either a) flee; b) become vicious, or c) play victim, whining about how hateful and mean we all are.

If theist boards are indicative of the kind of society we will have in a theistic America, and ii is indicative of the kind of society we will have in a society free of theistic authoritarianism, I'll take this board, flaws, flames, and all, anyday.

I suspect Helen and other tolerant, respectful believers would as well.