Volker.Doormann

Astrology has nothing to do with arbitrary groupings of dots of light in the sky and given imaginative descriptions and shapes.

It is the fantasy of Randi to argue on this nonsense. An missing explanation does not prove something wrong. We do not know also why there was a Big Bang. Irrelevant. S. above. It is Randi's Assume and fantasy dealing with gravity.[qoute]4) The arbirtrary nature is a clear indication of pseudo-science (or to put it another way, bullshit). [/qoute]What is arbitray nature? Negative proof. Stupid.That may an argument against astrologers, but not against astrology.

Weak. Worshipping God Randi is also a worship.

If people are not able to do some significance calcs correct, or to argue ad hominem it it senseless to discuss with them seriosly.

Jesse

Randi:
If all of the planets and the sun were in perfect alignment with each other, and thus expected to exert the maximum gravitational effect on your body, do you know what it would take to counteract that effect using the Earth's gravitational effect on you?

Volker.Doormann:
It is Randi's Assume and fantasy dealing with gravity.

Physicists have long believed there are only four fundamental forces in nature--gravity, electromagnetism, the strong force, and the weak force. Any causal influence between two parts of the universe is thought to be conveyed through one or more of these forces, and all the forces we call by other names are ultimately manifestations of these basic forces (for example, the force of friction is due to electromagnetic forces between atoms). The strong and weak force are negligible except at very short range, so if the planets affect the brain in a way that's compatible with known physics, it must be through the gravitational or electromagnetic force. You say it's not gravity, but electromagnetism seems equally unlikely--I'm pretty sure that no matter what part of the electromagnetic spectrum you look at, the amount of radiation we recieve from the planets at that frequency is miniscule compared to the amount we recieve from other sources.

I suppose you could postulate a fifth, undiscovered fundamental force just to explain the results of astrology. But if you need to postulate radically new physical principles in order to explain astrology, along with radically new biological principles (like virtually the whole personality being created at the moment of first breath) that makes the theory inherently pretty implausible--some very strong evidence would be needed to get us to totally revamp existing science in such a basic way.

enrious

Isn't there some correlation between the likelihood of something being bullshit and the need to create new science that completely changes existing science to explain it?

Oh? Then what is it? Making fantastical drawings using a "connect the dots" kit and saying that these drawings happen to be clear dividers that tell you what you (and everyone else in the world) are like. Oh, but in order for it two work, you have to believe in it?

<snicker> You saved one whole character by abbreviating "see" with "S." Though, you probably came out even because you capitalised the "S".

It's irrelevant that the heavenly bodies that are supposed to affect us aren't where you think they are?

Would you like a little argumentum ad ignoratum to go with your coffee?

When you have to rely on ad hoc explanations to perpetuate the bullshit.

Astrology? Finally, we agree on something. Or did you mean to call me "stupid"?


And despite you saying that the fact that virtually no astrologers can seem to agree on their readings is "weak", it does tend to clearly mark astrology as not being scientific.

I mean...real science has a certain "universal nature" to it - gravity, for example, works the same in both China and England. Scientists in both places can conduct the same experiment and be expected to come up with the same results. There's no need to come up with an ad hoc explanation of "Oh, that must be a weakness among the scientists."
As for the "rebuttal" you offered, I respectfully suggest you look into the "argument from ignorance" fallacy.

I suppose it would be better to be selling fairy tales to people? Makes me want to found a Church. With big, neon lights.

Volker.Doormann

Randi's Assume and fantasy dealing with the gravitational effect from the mass of the planets on the earth gravity potential.

Astrology deals with angles, times, cycles of planets, but not with gravity. As Kepler has shown, the gravity or mass of a planet is (nearly) irrrlevant to the cycles of time oscillating with the sun.

I have not said, that gravitational effects are excluded in general. I have said that it is Randi's Assume and fantasy dealing with gravity (in those his imaginations).

Jesse

Volker.Doormann
Randi's Assume and fantasy dealing with the gravitational effect from the mass of the planets on the earth gravity potential.

Astrology deals with angles, times, cycles of planets, but not with gravity.

It's true that astrologers are not ordinarily concerned with the question of how the planets can influence personality, they just assume that they can, and have a system which describes the relationship between planetary positions and personalities; but if astrology is really true, there must be some kind of mechanism or explanation for how this works, no?

Volker.Doormann:
As Kepler has shown, the gravity or mass of a planet in (nearly) irrrlevant to the cycles of time oscillating with the sun

Nearly irrelevant? I have no idea what you mean here--all of the rules Kepler found can be derived as necessary consequences of Newtonian gravity. See this page, for example:

http://www.shef.ac.uk/uni/academic/N...erivation.html

Volker.Doormann:
I have not said, that gravitational effects are excluded in general. I have said that it is Randi's Assume and fantasy dealing with gravity (in those his imaginations).

Look, if the planets influence the brain in some way, you basically only have three options as to how they can do this:

1. Through one of the known forces (gravitation, electromagnetism, strong, weak)
2. Through an undiscovered fundamental force (would require a radical revision of known physics)
3. A form of "influence" which is not a force at all (an even more radical revision of known physics)

Which of these do you think is most likely? Can't option #1 be ruled out by examining how weak the gravitational/electromagnetic influence of planets on objects on earth is, as Randi was doing?

Volker.Doormann

Astrology has nothing in common with pictures, which people might believe to see in the night sky. Astrology make use of 12 absolute equal 30° angle distances counted from the so called astronomical spring equinox, which is moving with the motion of the earth’s axis from gravitational torque effects from the moon. These 12 angle distances have names, which are also used for ‘fix star pictures’, but they have nothing to do with that objects or pictures. Nothing. This is well known to all, who have read some books on astology.You can read an article about ‘Astronomy in Babylon’ doormann.org/asssky.htm . I that you can find some astrological qualities of the planets (Sun Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn). Mercury is mentioned for example with ‘Messenger’ or Saturn with ‘boundary’. All astrologers in the world agree on all these astrological qualities since Babylon (!). This is the universal nature of astrology ignored only by the fundamentalist’s in science called them self the believer and follower of ‘Skeptic’ and ‘Humanism’; fantasies, no one ever could have shown as more than superstition in the brains of fundies of science.

Secular Pinoy

How were these qualities known? What was the method? How can it be tested?

Volker.Doormann

Sure, that there must be a causality, but it is not a must, that for this causality must exist an explanation. There are many things in the world, which are used, and there is no explanation. You use for example logic. But you cannot give an explanation, how logic works. Yes or yes? (Maybe some of your four forces are involved in the working of logic?).
The force of gravitation includes the mass of the sun, as well as the mass of the specific planet. But because the mass of a planet is several orders minor to the mass of the sun, I have said ‘nearly’.
If you speculate on a working mechanism regarding the physics of astrology, it is your freedom.

I have replied to the Randi’s disproving astrology claims, which was shown to be irrelevant to the science of astrology.

Volker.Doormann

I dont know. Is that important?

Test? How can? Take your scientific tools od go on it.

Volker.Doormann

This is a forum were it counts to have arguments.

How about science?

The following 24 interpretations calculated from astronomical symbols out of the time and location were accepted as matching from a person, who was born exact at this time and location. I cite from his post:

“DEFINITE HITS:

• You want to fathom mysterious things because they attract you magically.
• You have a serious interest in religion, philosophy and higher formation. (I'm assuming higher formation is like science? And I think religion is crap, but I do have many reasons why I think it's crap, so obviously I think about it.)
• You attach big value to your moral reputation.
• Your feelings are vulnerable.
• You are pedantic in some things...
• You are rather sober and real in your basic attitude.
• You are silent and wait to seize the word about well thought-out and in shapely sentences to given time (I'm not 100% sure what this means, but I think it might be me)
• On the basis of your parents, you are somewhat inhibited and shy.
• And you are attached very much to your parents. (well, I was, though this doesn't seem to know that my mother is dead)
• You deal with reason and can talk sensibly about everything.
• You has can communicate meaningfully...
• You possess a big sensitivity and have a romantic, but not disorganized imagination, which you bring in a logical context.
• You are unbiased and convincing in your expression.
• You have an awake mind, expresses you well, and all things can clarify for the public.
• You are a serious personality and are cautiously in relationships.
• You have an ability to enjoy unorthodox joys.
• You are unsatisfied.
• Your mother crushes you! (well, she did back when I lived at home, but then I left for school and she died, so does this still count?)
• Often, you hush up your intents.
• On the basis of your inflexible strength and your insight ability, you could give the mankind big, new and important realizations in the area of the sciences.
• You can work well in groups and can have also success there.
• You love it, that to explore you surrounding wonderland of knowledge and to read about it, and your life is a permanent thirst after more understanding.
• Nevertheless it will be your biggest unconscious wish one day to become a wandering encyclopedia so that you never don't come into the situation to have the correct information to the hand in the correct moment.
• You would like to hurt other people by no means, and it costs you much effort to develop the ability to say what you feel real.

“

Each of this matching interpretation’s is not only one bit, because an amount of specific details enhance this to an amount of bits, as a picture of 1 Mb has more details, as a picture of 1kb.

It was the amount of bits in these interpretations, which have been voted as significant.

Well, as I have argued, and what is ignored here, a significant matching has a value of at least 0.05. For 24 significant matching this counts to 5.9X10^-32 as significance value, because each of the single interpretations must be multiplied, because all this relates to one and the same person.

This means simple, to understand by each layman, that the chance, that this 24 interpretations are created randomly is 1 : 5.9X10^-32.

One can argue, that some of the single significant matching interpretations must not defined with a significance value of 0.05, it could be taken greater, that does change the grad of this significance value, but not the significance itself.

But the fact is, that these interpretations are calculated precisely and repeatable with astronomical algorithms and a data base including a big expert knowledge of astrology interpretations, loading a time and a location only, which has in common with that voting person only, it was born exact to that time and location, which was given as data to the algorithm.

This is the plot, Junior James Randi.