Jesse

The brain is the main thing important for tool making--people who have to have both arms amputated can sometimes learn to be nearly as dextrous with their feet, for example. Evolutionary speaking it's possible that our brains would not have developed as much in areas needed for tool use if our ancestors didn't have hands with opposable thumbs, but given a species that already has brains like ours, I think even an entire civilization of double amputees could probably run OK.

Cojana

I can't understand the opposition to my premise on Hands, there are nothing in this world that has not been done through the manipulation of Hands,we live in a world constructed by Hands, with the exclusion of life, Hands have a part to everything we do,what we wear,drive,or use,, the only trime Hands have no part in what we do are when were walking on a field of dirt, looking at the ocean, naked, if you can find a field of dirt near the ocean. where your at right now,your surounded by things made by hands, if your in a house or apartment, Hands,...

pz

I think the best examples of proficient organic tools are insect mouthparts. They make hands look pathetic, like kludgy, clumsy afterthoughts.

Insect mouthparts consist of highly modified limbs from multiple segments, tightly packed into one small area. They are loaded with mechanical and chemical sensillae. They are muscular and flexible, sheathed with hard chitin. They are highly adaptable -- look at the elaborate syringe-like structure of a mosquito for an extreme example.

Arguing that the human hand is the "pinnacle of evolution" is going to kill you on two counts: 1) there is no pinnacle, and by asserting that there is, you demonstrate your ignorance of evolutionary theory; and 2) the only way you can argue that a hand is the best tool is by being completely oblivious to the vast range of diversity in the natural world, thus demonstrating an ignorance of biological fact.

Stepping back and reading some of the biological literature on this topic would be a good strategy at this point.

Cojana

Sir, I am making my premises,perceptions, and concepts with civilazation as are, I don't know of any biologocal animal that has its appendages completed by Hands, monkeys and apes are the closes to having our hands, and if thier brains were anything like ours,they would be another race to compete with, imo, human structure are Universal, imo, human structure are the pinacle to evolution, as far as evolition are concerned, you all that think there's room for more,are just your opinion. no one will ever know whom are right, lest one lives a couple of billion years,will know for sure, I don't pretend to have your intellect, but my ignorance are not (imbicelic) the vowels are there even if the spelling are wrong, evolution can finish the job on our brains,our heads are too big for what we use,(Brain), I say again, Hands can make the mold that molds,the mold to create any tool necessary for use in any given specification, too bad there are not a tool maker among us, alas,... :banghead:

abe smith

Cojana old dear: The assumption that "evolution" (That's a man-made idea/label, ya know.) has to be "goal-oriented" is a left-over junk concept in the theology/teleology wastebasket. There is no reason for you nor anyone to believe that any "cosmic" processes are "goal-directed". Uh,..... uh.... howabout (I hazard this thought, certainly NOT "an assertion") >>>> :"Cosmic (and other, subordinate) processes are not arrow-shaped; they are *dendritic*."
We here might argue this thought sometime perhaps.
Do you, Cojana, assert that (cosmic and subordinate) processes ARE teleological = goal-oriented? If you do assert so, do you want to discuss/tell us WHY you do? This is a straight-forward request for information from-you..... Cordially, Abe.

abe smith

At the risk of exposing myself as some sort of damn WASP snob
(what! a freakin' jerk-queer like me?), I'd just like to express my interest and admiration in observing a mind struggling for expression, coherence, persuasiveness.... and let's not get our personal jollies denigrating those efforts, "kay?
(Somebody going to bang the gong on me for saying "denigrating"?)
Thank you, Jesse, for your efforts to this (teleological) end . (Ah Ah " meta-whatzis"). Having you doing us the moderator service is lucky-for-us.

Cojana

Having read a little about the Universe and its beginning, I am perplexed by how a tremendous explosion could settle down to complete harmony,the Universe are a marvelous self organized existence, our planetary system are a wonder,self organizes from the big bang, cosmic intelligence.?? the Cockroach are perfect,for what it does, and that are survival, it doesn't require any more then what it are, its goal was attained at conceprtion, we as humans have all the necessary element to procure our survival, we are attributed with the means to get bthe hell out of here before our Sun goes Nova, Hands are our salvation ,,...

Amaranth

*sigh*
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

If the cockroach was perfect for survival, it wouldn't ever fail to survive. It would be immortal.

Monkeys have hands. Monkeys will not build a spaceship to avoid a dying sun.

The brains ability for abstract conceptulization, pattern recognition, and logical deduction is mankinds boon. That is what puts us on top of the food chain.

Wounded King

:notworthy

HeatherD

Perfect

(If that doesn't work try this link: Perfect )