Keith Russell

Eric said:
I would say the opposite to Mark Twain, faith is acting on beliefs, that you believe to be true.

Keith: What about knowledge? Do you think that one can act on one's knowledge of what is true? 'Faith', it seems to me, is the hope that something is true, in spite of the fact that there is little to no solid evidence that it is.

I think there is a better basis for one's actions than simply 'hoping' one's views are right.

Eric: If and only if God exists then we need faith to act on what we believe he is saying.

Keith: Gosh, Eric, if 'God' exists, why can't 'He' simply tell us what's on 'His' mind? If an omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal 'God' can't find the means by which to communicate 'His' existence to 'His' 'Creation', what good is 'He'?

Eric: Believing is a struggle, faith is an even greater struggle.

Keith: Rational belief, based on sound evaluation of the available evidence, is often tedious, difficult, or physically and mentally taxing. It can be a 'struggle' to remain rational, in a world that increasingly seems actively opposed to both 'knowledge' and 'reason'.

Eric: If God exists then he must be greater than all the thousands of separate religions that exist.

Keith: And yet we cannot 'know' of 'His' existence, and must rely instead only on 'faith' that our beliefs about 'Him' are correct?

Eric: If God exists then it makes more sense that we are all created by the same God--

Keith: Sorry, Eric. It doesn't even make sense that 'God' exists in the first place.

Eric: --and this seems to cause a conflict in faith.

Somehow we have to acknowledge that people of all beliefs have the freedom to worship in the way they feel best. Also there will always be people who do not believe in God, and that is their choice also.

Keith: Eric, those are two different issues. On the one hand, you assume that 'God' exists, and you try to draw logical conclusions from that premise--without having any evidence that the premise (let alone your conclusions) are correct.

People of all faiths do not have the freedom to worship as they wish. Freedom is in scarce supply throughout much of the world. People should have the freedom to worship as they wish, but that is not what you said.

But, the fact that one should be free to engage in certain behaviour, does not make that behaviour right, proper, moral, and/or good.

Just because one should be free to worship what they believe to be 'God', does not mean that 'God' exists.

Keith.

Eric H

Quote Keith, It seems we're getting into the 'no True Scotsman' phase of the discussion.
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I think you are right, and we are drifting of topic as well arhhhhhhhhhhhh.


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Keith: What about knowledge? Do you think that one can act on one's knowledge of what is true? 'Faith', it seems to me, is the hope that something is true, in spite of the fact that there is little to no solid evidence that it is.
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That is sadly the case, once something becomes known, we no longer need to believe or have faith.

Faith can be the motivation to do just that little bit more, but it depends on our original beliefs as to whether we are motivated to use our faith for good or evil.


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Keith: Gosh, Eric, if 'God' exists, why can't 'He' simply tell us what's on 'His' mind? If an omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal 'God' can't find the means by which to communicate 'His' existence to 'His' 'Creation', what good is 'He'?
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I wish I knew, but if there is a God who had the power to create the universe, then he must have a greater knowledge and understanding than we have.

God either exists totally or there is no God at all.


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Keith: People of all faiths do not have the freedom to worship as they wish. Freedom is in scarce supply throughout much of the world. People should have the freedom to worship as they wish, but that is not what you said.
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I was really thinking more about having freedom from God to worship how we like.

I know there are pressures of burning in hell which may feel like a threat hanging over our heads, but we can still reject this and do as we please.

It seems that it is man more than God, who may try and exert pressures on us to believe in a certain way.


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Keith: Just because one should be free to worship what they believe to be 'God', does not mean that 'God' exists.
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True, and that is why we need faith, it seems we are stuck with our own beliefs. I still believe in God despite all the evidence on this forum which suggests that he does not exist.

I do believe above all else that if I am going to believe in a God then I should seek the morally good reasons to do this.

And I believe the bottom line is how we relate to people of opposing views and also how we relate to people who share our views.

peace

Eric

johngalt

Faith? Screw faith, Reason is man's only absolute!

malookiemaloo

But you are assuming that faith and reason are in conflict, mutually exclusive in fact. But is this the case?

Our reason must have limitations. Yes, we must worship God with our minds but how can we reason that God brought the world into being ex nihilo? We understand by faith. No conflict.


m

Keith Russell

All that exists is energy. Even matter is a form of energy (as Einstein showed).

Energy cannot be created or destroyed.

Cannot be created.

It is thus irrational to assume 'Creation'--

--or 'Creator'.

K

John Page

So you have faith in 1LT rather than 2LT?
Cheers, John

Nowhere357

As we approach the big bang singularity, the laws of physics seem to change. Perhaps it's irrational to assume anything before that point?

Also, does virtual particle theory imply the creation of energy from "empty" space?


Peace,
Keith