Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spurly · 04-03-2003, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by southernhybrid
Leave the atheists alone at the II.
I do have to wonder what your motivation is for asking atheists who were former Xians about this class. Most of us ex-Xians think that Xianity is pretty silly at best and quite harmful at worst. Do you really expect many serious answers here? Is it that you like to be shocked by what we say, want to add us to your prayer lists, like to be entertained by our witty replies or do you envy our freedom and happiness? I am perplexed.

Tell us what you really want.

To be honest, I was just curious as to what you would say.

Kevin

spurly · 04-03-2003, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Snedden
I'm curious why you decided to post this in the GRD forum instead of the Humor forum. Were you looking for serious answers?

If the intended audience is churchgoers, I imagine that the real focus of the class will be "how to be a good Christian" or "how to be a real Christian," no?

On a serious note, as befits this forum, I would much rather see Christian ministers teach classes in "How NOT to be a Christian." Fred Phelps, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Franklin Graham, James Dobson, and their ilk would make wonderful case studies. IMHO, more Christians need to speak out against those whose actions slander the loving God in whom they profess to believe while they presume to speak in his name.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

I agree Bill. And I do that when I see it.

Kevin

spurly · 04-03-2003, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bumble Bee Tuna
Step 1: force yourself through repetitive self-brainwashing to unquestioningly believe everything your church elders tell you
Step 2: Don't read the Bible
Step 3: Let someone else read the Bible to you, skipping over the bad parts and making sure you don't hear any contradictions
Step 4: Pray
Step 5: Once you have had the beliefs ingrained into your head, make sure you never think about them again
Step 6: If someone points out an inconsistency in the Bible, don't examine it. Just keep it in the back of your head until you see a proper pastor to give you some apologetics.
Step 7: Accept whatever the pastor gives for an explanation without thinking if it's possible or not (as per step 1)
Step 8: Every time you do something nice, just like you used to, remind yourself how you're only doing something nice because of your newfound godliness
Step 9: Bother the hell out of and estrange your old friends by witnessing to them
Step 10: Declare that they are immoral godless heathens when they don't want to be around you anymore
Step 11: Cut off all contact with heathens and surround yourself with like-minded godbots
Step 12: Sigh in relief as you have now brainwashed yourself so fully and cut yourself off enough from outside reason that you will never deconvert

Congratulations, you've made it through my 12-step program. You are now cured of your addiction to thinking.

-B

Bumble Bee, if I was judge according to your list, I wouldn't be a very good Christian, much less a minister.

I encourage our students in the student ministry to study the Bible themselves. To look for the truth. To struggle with the text when there are contradictions. Basically I encourage them to think.

Kevin

southernhybrid · 04-04-2003, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly
To be honest, I was just curious as to what you would say.

Kevin

Okay. Fair enough. I really don't think what we say would matter to the teacher of that class so I won't take the time to tell you what I really think.

Secular Pinoy · 04-04-2003, 05:31 AM

I'd say pick up all of the good stuff in the bible (not that many) and ditch the rest. The day I see a christian acting like a humanist is the day I stop arguing about their beliefs.

Jamie_L · 04-04-2003, 06:08 AM

Hmmmm....

In all honesty, and not meaning to be rude (honest), it seems such a class is kind of unnecessary. Or, at least, it is unnecessary for it's stated purpose. It may be valuable for welcoming potential newcomers into the community or for educating them about what the doctrines of Christianity are.

However, the way one accepts Christ is simple. You do it. The way one is told to do it is: "Accept Christ into your heart."

I don't mean that to be flip, but the people coming to this class are obviously open to the idea of becoming Christian. They shouldn't need to be convinced of it's truth. Those that aren't at least open to the idea of it's truth aren't going to come to such a class.

And Christianity is about faith. At least, that is what I am always told. You have faith first, then you understand why things are the way they are. So trying to explain to potential Christians what to do to gain that faith seems to be putting the cart before the horse. (Actually, from my perspective, it is putting the horse before the cart, but only because I see faith-first as the wrong way to do things).

Ultimately, it seems that this class can be little more than a sermon. Have faith. Accept Christ. You will understand. It's just a simple truth of Christianity that becoming a Christian is mostly a matter of just doing something (having faith) rather than observing, exploring, learning, etc.

Jamie

BioBeing · 04-04-2003, 07:24 AM

Is the class going to explain why, if a current non-believer is considering accepting a Deity, they should accept the Christian one over and above all others? Is it going to go into a detailed analysis of comparative religion, and show why all other belief systems are wrong? Is it even going to show why this particlaur Pastor's version of Christianity is superior to all other versions of Christianity? Maybe, if it could do all that, it might be a class worth taking.

Bumble Bee Tuna · 04-04-2003, 08:03 AM

Well, spurly, you claim these people are non-Christians. They're also adults. This tells me they're probably pretty rational creatures. Thus, the only way to convert and keep them will be to shut them off from rationality, both their inner rationality and interference from others. You, on the other hand, never were rational about these things to begin with, so there's nothing there to cure you of. You can be a Christian without ignoring rationality, because you're impervious to it to begin with.

-B

christ-on-a-stick · 04-04-2003, 09:34 AM

Kevin,

Quote:

I encourage our students in the student ministry to study the Bible themselves. To look for the truth. To struggle with the text when there are contradictions. Basically I encourage them to think.

You say "struggle with" the text when there are contradictions, but don't you, in all truthfulness, ultimately encourage them to try and makes "sense" of the contradiction in favor of Christianity even if they have to A) interpolate (make up hypothetical scenarious NOT mentioned in the Bible) B) say "I don't know, but I believe anyway"?

What EXACTLY is the point of "struggling" with the contradictory text if they are never allowed to come to an intellectually honest conclusion that the contradiction is not reconcilable from scripture as it is written without speculating, assuming and spinning "theories" of what it "could" have meant?

You are encouraging - actually, REQUIRING - that they embrace the presupposition that the Bible is Truth (TM). Presuppositionalism is the antithesis of critical examination.

You yourself have admitted in a recent thread that what your conviction on a certain point (everyone sinning) ultimately comes down to personal revelation. What if one of your flock has an equally strong and compelling revelation from God that conflicts with yours? How can you claim that yours is right and his or hers is wrong without engaging in the ultimate form of narcissism - unshakable belief that YOU cannot possibly be deluded, only everyone else?

mike_decock · 04-04-2003, 09:49 AM

Christian Brainwashing 101:

1) Convince yourself you are a hopeless sinner, unworthy of redemption.

2) Convince yourself that the Bible is the "Word of God" (TM) and that Faith therein will solve all your problems.

3a) Rationalize away any contraditions and absurdities in scripture or conflicts in your personal sense of justice compared to the sense of justice presented in the "Word of God" (TM).

3b)If you can't rationalize away the contradictions, convince yourself that "no man can know the mind of God", especially not a hopeless, worthless sinner like yourself.

4) Chant to yourself repeatedly hymns like "Trust and Obey" which endlessly degrade yourself and your own ability to make good decisions.

5) Do whatever it takes to stop yourself from questioning your newfound "Faith". Convince yourself that any evidence which contradicts your beliefs is a conspiracy, a deception of Satan or the product of man's desire to disobey God. Any desire to believe the evidence is true is the temptation of Satan or your own desire to do evil.

-Mike...

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04-04-2003, 05:31 AM	#25
Secular Pinoy Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Quezon City, Philippines Posts: 1,994	I'd say pick up all of the good stuff in the bible (not that many) and ditch the rest. The day I see a christian acting like a humanist is the day I stop arguing about their beliefs.

04-04-2003, 06:08 AM	#26
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Hmmmm.... In all honesty, and not meaning to be rude (honest), it seems such a class is kind of unnecessary. Or, at least, it is unnecessary for it's stated purpose. It may be valuable for welcoming potential newcomers into the community or for educating them about what the doctrines of Christianity are. However, the way one accepts Christ is simple. You do it. The way one is told to do it is: "Accept Christ into your heart." I don't mean that to be flip, but the people coming to this class are obviously open to the idea of becoming Christian. They shouldn't need to be convinced of it's truth. Those that aren't at least open to the idea of it's truth aren't going to come to such a class. And Christianity is about faith. At least, that is what I am always told. You have faith first, then you understand why things are the way they are. So trying to explain to potential Christians what to do to gain that faith seems to be putting the cart before the horse. (Actually, from my perspective, it is putting the horse before the cart, but only because I see faith-first as the wrong way to do things). Ultimately, it seems that this class can be little more than a sermon. Have faith. Accept Christ. You will understand. It's just a simple truth of Christianity that becoming a Christian is mostly a matter of just doing something (having faith) rather than observing, exploring, learning, etc. Jamie

04-04-2003, 07:24 AM	#27
BioBeing Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 6,004	Is the class going to explain why, if a current non-believer is considering accepting a Deity, they should accept the Christian one over and above all others? Is it going to go into a detailed analysis of comparative religion, and show why all other belief systems are wrong? Is it even going to show why this particlaur Pastor's version of Christianity is superior to all other versions of Christianity? Maybe, if it could do all that, it might be a class worth taking.

04-04-2003, 08:03 AM	#28
Bumble Bee Tuna Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 7,333	Well, spurly, you claim these people are non-Christians. They're also adults. This tells me they're probably pretty rational creatures. Thus, the only way to convert and keep them will be to shut them off from rationality, both their inner rationality and interference from others. You, on the other hand, never were rational about these things to begin with, so there's nothing there to cure you of. You can be a Christian without ignoring rationality, because you're impervious to it to begin with. -B

04-04-2003, 09:49 AM	#30
mike_decock Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 1,505	Christian Brainwashing 101: 1) Convince yourself you are a hopeless sinner, unworthy of redemption. 2) Convince yourself that the Bible is the "Word of God" (TM) and that Faith therein will solve all your problems. 3a) Rationalize away any contraditions and absurdities in scripture or conflicts in your personal sense of justice compared to the sense of justice presented in the "Word of God" (TM). 3b)If you can't rationalize away the contradictions, convince yourself that "no man can know the mind of God", especially not a hopeless, worthless sinner like yourself. 4) Chant to yourself repeatedly hymns like "Trust and Obey" which endlessly degrade yourself and your own ability to make good decisions. 5) Do whatever it takes to stop yourself from questioning your newfound "Faith". Convince yourself that any evidence which contradicts your beliefs is a conspiracy, a deception of Satan or the product of man's desire to disobey God. Any desire to believe the evidence is true is the temptation of Satan or your own desire to do evil. -Mike...

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