spurly

Yes, the verses you quoted do say that homosexuality is a sin. But it does not say that those people are not loved by God and to be loved by his people.

There is a big difference between saying: "Stealing is sin" and "hate the person who steals"; or "Lying is sin" and "hate the person who lies"; or "sexual immorality is sin" and "hate the sexually immoral".

As a matter of fact, in I Corinthians 6 Paul tells the Corinthians that they were homosexuals, greedy, etc. in the past, but then they met Jesus and they were changed. How could that happen? Only because they were loved, and shown the love of GOd.

The passage in Romans 1 that talks about homosexuality is followed later in the same book with these words:

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God [the point of the first part of Romans up to this point]. And are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood." Who does this apply to? All sinners, no matter what the sin. God loves them enough to provide the way for them to be saved. Doesn't sound like he hates them to me.

The passage you quoted in 1 Timothy is followed by these words in verse 15-16: "Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners - of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life." What was Paul saying? No matter what the sin, God's love can forgive if people will come to him and believe. The law points out where we fall short of God's standard, but Christ has provided the way to be forgiven.

In the last passage you listed, II Timothy three, Paul is talking about the way the world will devolve into sinful patterns the closer it gets to the end of time. Before Paul gets to that list, he tells Timothy this: "The Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and excape the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will." Paul instructs Timothy not to hate those that oppose him or disagree with him or are living in any kind of sin. Instead he is to be gentle and kind with them. Doesn't sound like Paul is saying to hate people who sin to me.

Yes people sin. What should the response of Christians be toward those people. Love. Gentless. Kindness. Prayer. We are never told to hate people who sin.

Kevin

Bree

I am interested in learning about your opinion on what the Bible says about judging others - Christians and unbelievers alike.

spurly

At the beginning of Matthew 7 Jesus says, "Do not judge or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you".

Later in the same chapter Jesus is recorded as saying, "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's lcothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them ... Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree can not bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruits you will know them."

James tells us, "There is only one lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you - who are you to judge your neighbor".

There is only one Judge of all mankind, and it is not me or any other Christian on the planet. The one Judge before whom we will all have to stand is God himself. Thus as Christians, we are not to set ourselves up as someone else's judge. Even when we present the story of Jesus to people, we are not to judge them. We are to present them with the truth, and let the holy spirit do the job Jesus said he would do - convict the world of guilt in regard to sin, righteousness, and judgment. Why? Because we don't know their hearts, God does.

However, as Christians, we have also been given a responsibility to be discerning. The second passage quoted by Jesus above was not referring to people in the world, but to false teachers in the church. Jesus says that we have to watch out, because people who will lead us into error exist, so we should examine their teaching and their life. If they don't produce good fruit, we should be very careful not to be taken in by their teaching.

In addition, the attitude of "Christians" who are constantly spewing hate toward people caught in a trap of sin goes completely against the character of the one they claim to follow - Jesus Christ. His advice - "Love your enemies". Paul builds on that in Romans 12 with these words: "Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge, I will repay, says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him, if he is thirsty give him something to drink. In doing this you will heap burning coals on his head. Do not be overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good."

People who continually spew forth hatred, and claim to be following God, are some of the people whose fruit is probably in question. That's not the attitude of the Jesus of the Bible.

I hope this rambling of mine answers your question. We are not to judge, we are to leave that to the only one who is able to do that justly - God himself. However, within the church we are to be discerning and not led astray. Present the truth of the gospel, and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting - it's part of his job.

Kevin

Celsus

Hey Kevin,

Your words are much appreciated, but I think you're speaking to the wrong bunch of people. Perhaps your ministry might be better served if you took a visit to Theology Web. I don't think I've met a ruder, more immature bunch of Christians anywhere on the net. You have more chance getting them to behave politely than converting us y'know.

Joel

Starboy

Joel, I think Kevin should tend to himself first. Until he can learn tolerance and just accept people as they are instead of trying to convert them to his religion I don't think anyone will take him seriously.

Starboy

HelenM

Actually, that may not be true...

I say that based on the usual responses I've got from Christians when I've tried to suggest they could be politer...

Helen

spurly

Starboy, I do accept people as they are. Max Lucado describes the way I feel the best. He put it like this: "God loves you just the way you are, but he refuses to let you stay that way. He wants to make you just like Jesus".

If I accept people the way they are and never challenge them to grow, to bring their lives into harmony with the God who created them to live in harmony with Him, I am being very selfish and dastardly evil.

Instead, If I accept them where they are, and then introduce them to the God who can make them just like Jesus, I am being very loving.

Kevin

mike_decock

Can't you see the arrogance in this attitude? Most of the world doesn't buy your claim that Jesus was the Son of God. Christians have repeatedly failed to prove it. How can you be so arrogant to assume that what the rest of the world believes is wrong? What makes you so superior that your reasoning and experiences are more valid than the majority of humanity?

-Mike...

spurly

Mike, thanks for asking these questions. I will try to answer them in this post.

Can't you see the arrogance in this attitude? There is no arrogance intended. I am actually a very humble person. However, you would have to meet me to know that. If God exists, which I believe he does, then introducing others to his love is not arrogance at all. It is very unselfish and is putting the needs of others to have a relationship with God above my own needs.

Most of the world doesn't buy your claim that Jesus was the Son of God. Christians have repeatedly failed to prove it. How can you be so arrogant to assume that what the rest of the world believes is wrong?

Again, it is not arrogance. I have studied the life, death, and resurrection of Christ enough to come to the conclusion that he was who he claimed to be - the very Son of God. Are there those who do not believe that? You bet. But they have every right to know about the love that God has for them as well, that's why I share the truth about Jesus.

What makes you so superior that your reasoning and experiences are more valid than the majority of humanity?
Mike, I am not superior. However, the God that I serve is. He is the creator and sustainer of life and he created us to love him with everything we've got. Truth is always valid, no matter how many people accept it as such.

Kevin

BadBadBad

Sorry, I double posted during one of the server too busy periods