John Page

I'm thinking more of a scientific explanation along the lines of x,y,z, happen and that causes us to think something is true. Then we have the physical corollary of an instance of truth.

The cultural interplay that generates public truths sits outside this - truths being intersubjectively agreed through the use of language to transfer concepts.

Makes sense?

Cheers, John

leyline

"This brings us back to one of the questions you dodged from my previous post: if it was moral for Germans to behave according to the cultural context provided by Naziism, wouldn't that make it immoral for anyone to behave counter to that context by hiding Jews in their basements or the like?"

well i presume you are referring to the morality of nazi germany. In which case i geuss so. I wasn't a nazi and never have been. I presume that people who hid jews in nazi germany were considered immoral by many nazi's. Why ask me?

"Gosh, you mean taking the high road is harder than going with the flow? Whodathunkit."

well again you are showing your cultural bias just like the rest of us. By your 'thinking' standards the harder high road is going against the flow, but for some the harder high road can be something else like the raw courage to stand next to your people.

"He was only one guy. Like all dictators, his power came ultimately from popular sufferance, from a people dying to be led."

yes. Truth is a cultural context, not what one man speaks.

leyline

John Page

I personally can only make sense of your scheme if truth is seen as something that can always be measured scientifically. Scientific measurement is only one of many authorities by which to judge. Yes it makes sense in that context. But its just not a context that I go along with the whole hog. Emotionally and spiritually it lacks something for me.

yguy

Just wanted to see if you were possessed of the mentality which could rationalize being a cog in a totalitarian regime, as so many Germans did. If words are windows to the soul, I'm not impressed.

No, it's going against the flow when the flow is going towards the bottomless pit.

Sure. That's what we Americans had during our Revolutionary War, what you Brits had during WWII. Standing next to good people is good, and standing next to bad people (like Nazi storm troopers) is bad.

leyline

well i am certainly not arguing for amorality through recognition of cultural relativism.

So often people think that the lack of absolutes means the complete end of order. It didn't happen with time so why should it happen with truth?

yguy

Why shouldn't it?

If America hadn't stood up to the Nazis, they'd have been the new truth. If we don't stand up to Islamic terrorists, sharia law will be the new truth. Thus, because you have a cultural context, you will have the concept intact - the reality it represents will be nothing but a wistful memory. Given enough time, the truth will eventually be that morelocks are scary and that eloi are good to eat.

g-train

Truth is what is, it resides without any one having to be aware or know of it.

Belief is what we think is the truth or about the truth, believes have to be maintained by the mind(s) to continue to exist, except a subconscious belief could exist with no one knowing though couldn't it?

"No truth can be shown" isn't contradictory, after all he can't prove that statement is true can he?

You say that personal thoughts and perceptions have meaning outside of personal thoughts and perceptions Page but isn't that going against your basic concept that nothing has meaning outside of personal thoughts and perceptions ie your personal thoughts and perceptions have no meaning to me or yourself?

sophie

Tristan Scott, you disagreed, you don't believe that the Truth and facts are always the same. They can be the same, but they are not always the same.

I am curious to understand how and when you make the distinction between truth and fact.

You then went on to say that this thread proves your point.

Are you claiming there is no truth in this thread but facts or there are facts but no truth.

Tristan Scott

No, Sophie, I am saying that truth is not absolute. What is true for one person may not be true for another person. That is what this thread proves.

sophie

Tristan Scott, I was asking why you thought truth and facts were different.

Now you have completely gone off topic with a reference to absolute truth.

Can you answer the specific question between fact and truth.


Additionally when you say what is true for one person is not true for another, you are delving into modal truth. DO you know what is modal truth?


Further why are you claiming those who have posted on this thread posess the truth? I certainly would not claim throughout any of my posts to have the truth. So you have not found the truth...