Freethought & Rationalism Archive

K · 10-08-2002, 07:09 PM

RJS:

Quote:

This logic taken to the extreme would suggest that rapists and murderers should not be punished because God made them that way.

That is absolutely right. God should not punish rapists and murderers because He made them that way. If God exists, we should not punish them, because God made them that way. If God doesn't exist, then there are plenty of pragmatic reasons for society to punish them. Watch out, you might have just had a brief glimpse at one of the reasons I don't believe God exists.

10-08-2002, 10:42 PM

Good question Devilnaut and I will try to answer.

To enter heaven is equal to metamorphosis which is native to mankind just as it is native to other animals. The difference is that we do not get wings like butterflies but just a change of vision is required which now means that it takes place in our mind and because it takes place in our mind it can affect our entire body because our mind is in charge of our body. From where comes the idea that "we can have the mind of God," no sickness, no pain, no suffering, no desire" etc., and also "new wine into new skins; the reign of God is in your midst" etc.

Now just because it is native to man does not mean that it is sure to happen and the aim of religion is, first, to increase its frequency and second, to increase its intensity. If they are successfull and many of its members do obtain the mind of God the civilization will prosper because omniscience, and therefore also wisdom, will become the driving force in and behind that civilization. Therefore it is said that the mythology is for the survival and prosperity of the tribe.

True, the physical existence of Jesus is not important but the evidence of his existence would sure be a reinforcement for believers and remove much doubt in their own mind.

The reason why the ego is a liability is because salvation (metamorphosis) is a non-rational event in which our facully of reason must be placed subservient to our intution. Because it is a non-rational event it is the best kept secret because it is also "a non-rational secret"

and therefore a mysterious event promulgated by mystery religions in the mystery of faith. Note that all major religions are mystery religions.

First let me say that the ego is good and a big ego is better just as an education is good and a big education is better. The flip side of this is that our assets become liabilities when we must favor our inner man over our ego identity during the great inquisition as to who we really are.

There will be a choice to be made and before we do make the actual identity shift we must abandon our self worth along with our possession and kind of follow Joseph to the state of mind he was at birth, hence the census.

Why can't non-christians do this? They can, but not easy with a big ego and especially not with a big education because there is far too much at stake to walk away from. The fact that they can is recognized in Catholicism with the Baptism of Fire.

The Bible was never useful and is actually what makes pharisees out of good believers. The Bible must be used very little and all we should hear from it is like the morsels of [spiritual] food that dropped from the rich man's table.

More important from the bible is the conscience we get when the laws are written upon our hearts as if in stone against which our sins must clash like the blows of a hammer on an anvil. In time, in a very long time, our inner man must convict the outer man (here called our ego consciusness) of his vainglory as sinner and this will be the beginning of metamorphosis. The concept sin is why the laws were given to Moses and so sin is not God's idea but Moses had this inspiration to increase the frequence and intensity of salvation. Of course if it was an inspiration it was an inspiration from God but only in the mind of Moses (very clever).

What undermines this is the premature abandomnment of the ego. If metamorphosis is a midlife event we should just pretend that we are like caterpillars and gather as much worldly richess as possible because they will become our richess in heaven--which is after a succesful meno pauze.

In the image of literature our involutional period is when we create our ego which is the rising action of our life and so the greater our ego the greater our rising action will be. From this follows that with much at stake our crisis moment can be very intense and to intensify this crisis moment the Church must lead us extremely far into the West if not to the very end of our own world where we will carve a clearing and spin our cocoon from where we will emerge with wings on which we can soar like an eagle. These will be the divine comedies.

The greatest evil depicted in the bible is that evangelistic preachers prevent us from moving deep into the jungle of life and at the first sign of incubation they can and will jerk us free from our cocoon and even long before we have wings on which to soar. These will become the [Senecan] tragedies in life.

wdog · 10-09-2002, 03:28 AM

K,

thanks for your earlier comments, I think you and i are like thinkers on this and i appreciate your comments as well.

what is staggering here, to me at least, is the lack of mercy in the christian god. if I were such a being, we would all be in heaven right now. If I had the powers they ascribe him, I bet i could even reform the likes of ted bundy, or joe stalin so they could come 'home'.

what you and I both know instinctually is that this so-called loving god lacks the capacity to love his 'children' as you and i love our own.

Jamie_L · 10-09-2002, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
Jamie,

This appears to be a contradiction. First, you indicate that you have "concluded" that God doesn't exist. On the other hand, you inquire why God would punish you for reaching this conclusion.

Van,

K mistakenly answered this, believing it directed at him. However, his explanation is accurate. I am speaking of a situation I consider hypothetical, but which Christians consider real. That (hypothetical) situation being: I believe God does not exist, but I am wrong. That is the basis of the OP. Asking a hypothetical question to point out what is felt to be a contradiction in Christian theology.

Quote:

...let us concentrate on three things primarily:

1. There is a Creator.
2. There is objective right and wrong.
3. You can make choices.

Again, for the purposes of this thread, I am granting all three of these as hypothetically existing. For the purposes of this thread, I am not arguing those points.

Quote:

I agree that our status as humans is not ours to control. However, we can make choices. We can always choose to do what is good, or we may choose to do what is wrong. We may choose to earnestly seek the truth, or we may be relatively indifferent towards it.

Again, my situation: I have earnestly sought the truth, and I have concluded that the truth is: belief in God is irrational. I have sought the truth using the human faculties that I did not choose. I have based my conclusion on the information available in the world that I did not create.

Which brings us back to the same question: (If God exists) Would God punish me for making an honest mistake about the way the world works? If so, why?

Now, your post has another implication in it. You seem to imply that you believe I have not made an honest mistake, but that I have somehow chosen to ignore the truth, or chosen not to seek it hard enough. Do you belive that all atheists choose to do this? Do you believe that it is impossible to earnestly seek the truth and come to an honest conclusion that about God does not exist?

Jamie

GeoTheo · 10-09-2002, 09:35 AM

If life after death exists, it is controlled by God. We are no longer in control when we die.
We know this because when we "kill" parts of ourselves we no longer exercise control over them.
Our "soul" can no longer see if by chance our eyes are poked out. Our "soul" can no longer think when it is severely damaged by injury or disease.
So these are arguments used for anihilation of the soul after death. But interestingly the Bible does not talk about disembodied souls being in heavan.
It speaks of ressurection. This is taught to be totally of God. God ressurects our bodies.
One way that I concieve of this is that God somehow translates us, sort of like how our voices can be stored on an electromagnetic strip and then
"resurrected" again when we play a tape. The information is there. So I think of our lives, the essence of who we are are all recorded somewhere and will one day be ressurected. When a person becomes a believer in Christ the tape is erased. Then a new tape is started. The only parts that are then recorded are the parts where We allowed God to dwell within our being and be manifested through our actions. Now the analogy breaks down a bit but it is important to remember the "tape" is us not just a recording of us. The body is gone but when you die the tape stops. No time or opportunity to record any new data. What you have is what you have and God owns your tape. He has the power to do with them now as he wishes.
If God and you were not united when on Earth you will not be united now. You will spend eternity seperated from God in a dark and lonely place.
With Christians, their tape was erased when they got saved, because basically it was useless information up to that point because it did not "communicate" God. So you start out afresh and try to communicate God in everything you do in every aspect of your being. This is how you grow as a Christian. All of your sins(areas in your life where God is not communicated) keeps getting erased (forgiven) So Christians have choices to make also and this is contingent on the amount of joy and rewards they will experience in Heavan.
The more closer you get to God in this life the more you will experience him in the next. Everyone will not be equal.
Just think how poor of a state a soul will be in that never experienced God during life. Their tape is composed of only worthless trivial information.
They will have only regret at a life wasted when they are resurrected hence "weeping and gnashing of teeth" for all eternity.

Mageth · 10-09-2002, 09:50 AM

So god is some sort of cosmic DJ?

K · 10-09-2002, 10:00 AM

Mageth:

Zing! You actually made me laugh out loud at work.

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: K ]</p>

Autonemesis · 10-09-2002, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:
But interestingly the Bible does not talk about disembodied souls being in heavan.
It speaks of ressurection. This is taught to be totally of God. God ressurects our bodies.
One way that I concieve of this is that God somehow translates us, sort of like how our voices can be stored on an electromagnetic strip and then
"resurrected" again when we play a tape. The information is there. So I think of our lives, the essence of who we are are all recorded somewhere and will one day be ressurected. When a person becomes a believer in Christ the tape is erased. Then a new tape is started. The only parts that are then recorded are the parts where We allowed God to dwell within our being and be manifested through our actions.

Well that's a nice story, but that's all it is: a story. And it is made up entirely by you. And I've heard nicer ones.

GeoTheo · 10-09-2002, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kind Bud:
<strong>

Well that's a nice story, but that's all it is: a story. And it is made up entirely by you. And I've heard nicer ones.</strong>

Actually it's an analogy and it's based on scripture. Looks like you would rather dismiss it out of hand than examine it's implications. Which makes you a mere scoffer and not at all interested in the topic of this thread.

Mageth · 10-09-2002, 11:25 AM

Actually it's an analogy and it's based on scripture.

What scripture?

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10-08-2002, 10:42 PM	#442
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	Good question Devilnaut and I will try to answer. To enter heaven is equal to metamorphosis which is native to mankind just as it is native to other animals. The difference is that we do not get wings like butterflies but just a change of vision is required which now means that it takes place in our mind and because it takes place in our mind it can affect our entire body because our mind is in charge of our body. From where comes the idea that "we can have the mind of God," no sickness, no pain, no suffering, no desire" etc., and also "new wine into new skins; the reign of God is in your midst" etc. Now just because it is native to man does not mean that it is sure to happen and the aim of religion is, first, to increase its frequency and second, to increase its intensity. If they are successfull and many of its members do obtain the mind of God the civilization will prosper because omniscience, and therefore also wisdom, will become the driving force in and behind that civilization. Therefore it is said that the mythology is for the survival and prosperity of the tribe. True, the physical existence of Jesus is not important but the evidence of his existence would sure be a reinforcement for believers and remove much doubt in their own mind. The reason why the ego is a liability is because salvation (metamorphosis) is a non-rational event in which our facully of reason must be placed subservient to our intution. Because it is a non-rational event it is the best kept secret because it is also "a non-rational secret" and therefore a mysterious event promulgated by mystery religions in the mystery of faith. Note that all major religions are mystery religions. First let me say that the ego is good and a big ego is better just as an education is good and a big education is better. The flip side of this is that our assets become liabilities when we must favor our inner man over our ego identity during the great inquisition as to who we really are. There will be a choice to be made and before we do make the actual identity shift we must abandon our self worth along with our possession and kind of follow Joseph to the state of mind he was at birth, hence the census. Why can't non-christians do this? They can, but not easy with a big ego and especially not with a big education because there is far too much at stake to walk away from. The fact that they can is recognized in Catholicism with the Baptism of Fire. The Bible was never useful and is actually what makes pharisees out of good believers. The Bible must be used very little and all we should hear from it is like the morsels of [spiritual] food that dropped from the rich man's table. More important from the bible is the conscience we get when the laws are written upon our hearts as if in stone against which our sins must clash like the blows of a hammer on an anvil. In time, in a very long time, our inner man must convict the outer man (here called our ego consciusness) of his vainglory as sinner and this will be the beginning of metamorphosis. The concept sin is why the laws were given to Moses and so sin is not God's idea but Moses had this inspiration to increase the frequence and intensity of salvation. Of course if it was an inspiration it was an inspiration from God but only in the mind of Moses (very clever). What undermines this is the premature abandomnment of the ego. If metamorphosis is a midlife event we should just pretend that we are like caterpillars and gather as much worldly richess as possible because they will become our richess in heaven--which is after a succesful meno pauze. In the image of literature our involutional period is when we create our ego which is the rising action of our life and so the greater our ego the greater our rising action will be. From this follows that with much at stake our crisis moment can be very intense and to intensify this crisis moment the Church must lead us extremely far into the West if not to the very end of our own world where we will carve a clearing and spin our cocoon from where we will emerge with wings on which we can soar like an eagle. These will be the divine comedies. The greatest evil depicted in the bible is that evangelistic preachers prevent us from moving deep into the jungle of life and at the first sign of incubation they can and will jerk us free from our cocoon and even long before we have wings on which to soar. These will become the [Senecan] tragedies in life.

10-09-2002, 03:28 AM	#443
wdog Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Ohio, USA Posts: 1,547	K, thanks for your earlier comments, I think you and i are like thinkers on this and i appreciate your comments as well. what is staggering here, to me at least, is the lack of mercy in the christian god. if I were such a being, we would all be in heaven right now. If I had the powers they ascribe him, I bet i could even reform the likes of ted bundy, or joe stalin so they could come 'home'. what you and I both know instinctually is that this so-called loving god lacks the capacity to love his 'children' as you and i love our own.

10-09-2002, 09:35 AM	#445
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	If life after death exists, it is controlled by God. We are no longer in control when we die. We know this because when we "kill" parts of ourselves we no longer exercise control over them. Our "soul" can no longer see if by chance our eyes are poked out. Our "soul" can no longer think when it is severely damaged by injury or disease. So these are arguments used for anihilation of the soul after death. But interestingly the Bible does not talk about disembodied souls being in heavan. It speaks of ressurection. This is taught to be totally of God. God ressurects our bodies. One way that I concieve of this is that God somehow translates us, sort of like how our voices can be stored on an electromagnetic strip and then "resurrected" again when we play a tape. The information is there. So I think of our lives, the essence of who we are are all recorded somewhere and will one day be ressurected. When a person becomes a believer in Christ the tape is erased. Then a new tape is started. The only parts that are then recorded are the parts where We allowed God to dwell within our being and be manifested through our actions. Now the analogy breaks down a bit but it is important to remember the "tape" is us not just a recording of us. The body is gone but when you die the tape stops. No time or opportunity to record any new data. What you have is what you have and God owns your tape. He has the power to do with them now as he wishes. If God and you were not united when on Earth you will not be united now. You will spend eternity seperated from God in a dark and lonely place. With Christians, their tape was erased when they got saved, because basically it was useless information up to that point because it did not "communicate" God. So you start out afresh and try to communicate God in everything you do in every aspect of your being. This is how you grow as a Christian. All of your sins(areas in your life where God is not communicated) keeps getting erased (forgiven) So Christians have choices to make also and this is contingent on the amount of joy and rewards they will experience in Heavan. The more closer you get to God in this life the more you will experience him in the next. Everyone will not be equal. Just think how poor of a state a soul will be in that never experienced God during life. Their tape is composed of only worthless trivial information. They will have only regret at a life wasted when they are resurrected hence "weeping and gnashing of teeth" for all eternity.

10-09-2002, 09:50 AM	#446
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	So god is some sort of cosmic DJ?

10-09-2002, 10:00 AM	#447
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Mageth: Zing! You actually made me laugh out loud at work. [ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: K ]</p>

10-09-2002, 11:25 AM	#450
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	*Actually it's an analogy* and it's based on scripture.** What scripture?

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