Thomas Metcalf

Originally posted by Magus55 :

How did you reach that logical conclusion about God? And by what non-human standards do you define God?

Magus55

I base it on how complex the Universe really is, how so many things form in perfect harmony that can't possibly exist without an intelligent creator, as well as since i believe the bible to be perfect and the word of God - i believe who he says he is.

We don't have the capacity to understand God more than what hes shown us. The best a human can do to explain him is hes perfect, all loving, all merciful, all just, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, all righteous and all holy.

philechat

Perfect harmony with gentle volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes, avalanches, ebola viruses, and LOTS of genetic diseases.

*yawn*. How do we know all these? By faith?
Note that all "values" must include a valuer. So you, as a person, defines God as having all the above attributes. Which means, by your fallable human instinct, you might "mistakenly" define God as having all the above attributes.

Jobar

I believe who he says he is.

Magus, you believe what people say about God- and only some of those things. (You don't believe that Mohammed was his prophet, for instance.)

God has never said word one. No books bear his signature. No recordings of him exist. He's no more real than Santa Claus.

The Bible you are so certain of is only one of thousands of collections of myths which humans have used for guidance throughout history. It's full of mistakes, contradictions, and stupidity. And that is before the accidental or purposeful mistranslations. Go to our BC&A forum and look at any of the ongoing threads.

Look, you seem a decent sort- I'm going to give you my 'fair warning to theists.'

- I have told this to other Christians who have come here- I want to give you fair and plain warning. Your faith is at risk here. Oh, I am sure you will scoff at me when I say this, maybe even get very angry and self-righteous. But if you remain here, and actually listen to us instead of simply trying to preach to us, you may, suddenly or slowly, find your faith, which you think to be solid rock, shattering beneath your feet like rotten ice.

We are worshipers of truth here. Note I do not capitalize it and call it Truth; that would imply that I consider it to be something established and absolute, unchangeable and unquestionable. No. The truth we seek is always open to new questions! We worship an admittedly approximate, but constantly improving, vision. We welcome new questions fully as much as we revere new answers.

We consider the Bible- the Truth you consider so unquestionable- to be, at the very best, a version of truth grown stale, and petrified, and proven untruthful long long ago. We can demonstrate it- with vast numbers of things undreamt of in your theology. Bones. Telescopes. Photographs. Medicines. Computers! Philosophies and ideas so far beyond the tiny tinkertoy universe described by your precious holy book that even the wisest on the Earth at that time could not understand, which even elementary school students of today can explain!

If you would keep your faith, and continue to believe your world is flat, and less than ten thousand years old- flee. Now. We will not pursue you.

But if you come here and ask, we will try to teach you of these truths we are sure of, and we will also tell you of the things we are *not* sure of. We will try to correct your ignorance, as gently as we (in our individual, harried, and humanly fallible ways) are able.

We will try to tell you the truth.

Magus55

This is a discussion forum correct?

Are you saying debates between atheists and christians aren't welcomed here?

Just as you all don't believe in what i say and think im suffering from delusion - i find atheism to be a lie from Satan - to draw you from God - and its worked quite well.

You can try all you want to show me the error in my ways but i will never reject Jesus for Atheism or any other belief, just as you most likely will never take heed to what im saying and become a believer. But my calling from God is to at least try to bring more people to Him.

And i don't just believe what others say about him. I've been a participant in miracle that can't be explained by any logical or human means and understanding - something so life altering, to deny its divine origin is to dismiss everything i know as a person. I don't just believe in God, i feel God's precense. There have been studies on the effects of prayer. Where people who were sick on the other side of the world, were prayed for ( without the sick person's knowledge) and they were healed in a way medicine can't even explain. Someone told me a story about how their dad was visited by an angel on his death bed. In the hospital a nurse saw a man walk into his dads room. The nurse saw the man go into the one exit/entrance room. The nurse walked over to the room and when she walked in - the man had vanished. And since she was watching the door the whole time - he couldn't have slipped by her. The nurse told the man's family an actual angel visited him.

Now, even if these all are coincidences - they are miraculous and curious enough to make one consider the possibility that God does exist and we just can't explain everything - as oppose to completely dismissing the idea all together just because you don't like the idea of a god.

The only difference is, if i'm wrong - what have i lost? Nothing. But if im right - what have you lost? Everything.

philechat

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

I smell Pascal's Wager here. The fact is that there are more than 3000 religions on Earth, including the ones you've never heard of. Pick your number .

Magus55

Yes and none can hold a candle to christianity - whats your point?

Jobar

Magus, of course this is a discussion forum, and of course you are welcome to discuss your beliefs. The point of my warning is that we are very good at slaughtering sacred cows. There have been numerous believers who lost their belief because of the questions we ask, and the facts we present. As a decent human being, and one of the moderators of this forum, I feel it is my duty to let believers know that they may find Internet Infidels an extremely disturbing place.

With that said though, we are always glad to have theists come here and cross verbal swords with us. We unbelievers don't like to only preach to the choir, either.

Magus55

Thanks for the warning but i feel confident enough in my faith to not be worried

Shadowy Man

Name one.