Loren Pechtel

AA can be done by decree--the cost doesn't appear on the government books. Fixing the problem will be expensive and will be on the government books.

lunachick

Lohan:

(On the run, fly-by post - I'll be back.)

German reparation payments to Israel, worldwide Jewry, and other victims of the Holocaust.

everlastingtongue

lunachick,

I�m not doubting that what you say is true � that Germany has been paying reparations to Israel for the holocaust � I�m really not informed enough on the subject to disagree.

But you might want to double-check the sources you elect to site. I followed the link you provided and it belongs to a history revisionist site that states that ��The "genocide" (or "attempted genocide") of the Jews never took place.� and that �This lie, which is largely of Zionist origin, has made an enormous political and financial fraud possible, whose principal beneficiary is the state of Israel.�

Not a source I would trust. I�m sure this is an accident, but I thought you would like to know.

Here is the link (scroll down to the �conlusions� section): http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/gaschambers.html

lunachick

Just throwing in a few on-topic links regarding reparations, for your perusal:

National Coalition of Blacks for Reparations In America

The Reparations Movement in Africa

More on American reparations movements for Blacks in America.

European Americans who support Reparations

An approach to international reparations from Human Rights Watch

Reparations and Treaty Rights for African-Americans and Native Americans

While the above sites do not deal directly, or solely, on the issue of AA, they do address the issue of reparations - and not just in America.

With regard to the argument that this generation cannot be made to make reparation for wrongdoings committed by their forebears, I believe this is a cop-out. I also believe that using the bible/atheist argument of sin, and punishment for thousands of years, to debunk religious myth is a cop-out with regard to this very real, contemporary issue.

Sure, if my father committed a crime against his neighbour, and was not brought to trial over it, then there's no way I should go to trial and be punished in his place. BUT, if I am continuing to reap the benefits of that crime, then yes - I should expect to pay reparations, and lose those benefits. I may not be found guilty of the crime and sent to jail, myself - but I cannot also expect to continue to reap the benefits of the original crime.

In the case of reparations on national, international and ethnic scales, the individual no longer matters - it is the nation that matters. And a nation - it's crimes, they way it either benefits or loses from wrongdoings, or even simply mismanagement - transcends the individual and the normal life span of individuals. For example, mistakes made by todays adminstration will have far reaching effects. Chances are your children will be "punished" (y'all so keen to keep using this word ) for the mismanagement of their forebears. In enviromental concerns, your children and childrens children may be "punished" for your crimes against the environment, via greater prevalence of asthma, for example. Not fair, eh? But you should be happy with that - as so many of you keep saying - life is not fair. And while you may not like the idea of reparations, that's just tough - life ain't fair - live with it, and pay up, already.

RED DAVE

Great post, lunachick. To the point.

RED DAVE

lunachick

Fair enough - I just did a quick google in my lunchbreak and found the link. Here's one from The Atlantic: http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/f...igold/wise.htm

And from an Israeli site on the history of Moshe Sharet: He devoted much of his time as Minister of Foreign Affairs to the issue of reparations from Germany, and in 1952 signed a reparations agreement with West Germany.

everlastingtongue

lunachick,

Regarding reparations�how far should this go? How would it be practically implemented?

Since Germany is paying reparations to Israel, wouldn�t it also follow that reparations are due to France, Belgium, Luxemburg, Poland, etc.? People were forcibly removed from these nations as well and executed. All of these nations were damaged by Nazi occupation. Israel didn�t even exist as a nation until after the end of World War II.

What about where I live, California. It was first inhabited by Native Americans and then conquered by the Spanish and then taken by the U.S. If reparations are due to Native Americans, who pays � Spain or the U.S.? Do the reparations go to all Native Americans, or just those who dwelled in California at the time? What about Native Americans now living in California, but whose ancestry is traced to other regions? What about Native American nations that conquered or drove out other tribes or nations � would some of the reparations they receive then get paid to the other tribes/nations that they had wronged?

There are many areas of the world that have been conquered and re-conquered dozens of times � which brings up another interesting question: how far do we go back in time, to consider repartitions? Should Greece receive reparations from Italy for Roman Conquests? I�m not making light here, I�m just asking what would we determine �year zero� where reparations are considered and how will this date be determined fairly?

At least here in America, we are already live in a sue happy nation � people have sued McDonalds for making them fat or serving them hot coffee that scalded when spilled. Reparations would soon turn into a court nightmare that might never be resolved.

Lohan

Thanks for the references, Lunachick. I hadn't realized that Germany had paid any reparations beyond the sort of thing you might expect immediately following the war. While the first link you provided may be from a revisionist website, I don't doubt the numbers are probably pretty accurate. I agree with the idea that the German government compensate the victims of Hitler's evil immediately following the far, but if this site is even remotely accurate on the continuing payment of reparations, then I think that is a shame, as obviously the direct victims/perpetrators of the Holocaust are all dead, and those who would have received the most benefits are no longer around. You really have to ask the question, that as Jews received their own independent nation and victims were paid reparations following the war, why these reparations have continued on into 1990s and presumably the 21st century.

Back to the topic of AA:

Has there been oppresion of blacks in America in the past? Are there now inbalances in American society resulting from this discrimination and oppression? And do we as a society have some responsibility to ensure that all citizens of America are provided the same opportunity to succeed? The answer to all these questions is absolutely. But like I've said (and I haven't seen a direct reply yet) AA is not the cure to this situation. Like you said, Lunachick, we as a nation have a responsibility for all the people in this nation to have an equal chance to succeed. Unfortunately, what AA does is provide a guarantee of success. It is this guarantee that encourages lackluster performance. We can encourage equal opportunity by improving our failing schools in inner cities (and doesn't everyone have an opinion on how that should be done these days), by encouraging parents to be involved in their children's education, and other community level and individual level action. What kind of success has AA had in all its years of effect of remedying the below average quality of life many minorities in this country face? Sure, we can point to individual success stories like Alan Keyes, but as long as Lunachick has framed the debate on the level of the nation, have we really seen on the national level a decrease in the overall poverty level of minorities and an increase in their quality of life?

lunachick

All good questions, elt and Lohan. I can't pretend to know the answers, but clearly something must be done, and must continue to be done for the foreseeable future.

Anyhow, it's Monday evening here - I have dinner to cook and my own child's homework to attend to - give me a few hours to get those things out of the way, while I mull over these concerns and try to find some solutions out there.

What I will say now, though, is that people are still benefitting and suffering from those past wrongdoings. This needs to be addressed.

Also, I don't believe racism and racial bogotry and ignorance will go away, unless people of different races are forced, initially, to study together, work together, play together - thereby getting to know each other better; the results of that over a few generations is the building of bridges, and a healthier society all round. But then. I always was a dreamer.

PopeInTheWoods

I think Loren's first point is spot on, and would make Koy's proposed solution unworkable. A company or school that wanted to discriminate could simply make up reasons that all other things weren't equal. "Mr. White projected more confidence and professionalism at the interview than Mr. Black," or "We rated Bradley White's lacrosse experience above Tyrone Black's track participation because lacrosse is a team sport," or any of a million other rationalizations.

Unlike LP, I think this point shows that it's not feasible to measure equality of opportunity (which I assume to be the desired goal of affirmative action), and that the measurement and analysis of results is the only gauge of any solution's effectiveness. Thus the hated quotas (I acknowledge that "quotas" per se are not legally mandated, but let me us it as a shorthand for "measurement and analysis of race-based results").

Of course "quotas" have their own boatload of shortcomings. They best apply to large populations (not having a black Supreme Court Justice shouldn't, mathematically speaking, be an issue) such as universities and large companies. More importantly, there's a time lag between the implementation of equality of opportunity, and the reflection of such in the measured results.

So taking all this into account, I'd like to propose an Affirmative Action counter-solution if Koy will indulge me:

1) Legally enforce quotas in all promotions and new hirings (for all businesses of a certain size), all higher education admissions, and all non-public primary and secondary education admissions.
- quotas defined by racial minority group
- a group's percentage within the successful applicants must not be below 80% of the percentage of total applicants from that group (e.g. if 30% of applicants to a particular college are black, blacks must make up at least 24% of the total accepted; if 40% of a company's candidates for promotion to manager are Hispanic, at least 32% of their new managers must be Hispanic)
- quotas will remain in effect for a minority group until the national median income for that group is 90% of the median for whites (there's your time limit or ending condition, Koy)

2) Change school funding so that all public primary and secondary school can spend at least 80% of the national mean or median (whichever is higher) cost-of-living-adjusted per student amount.

These proposals are at least measurable, and theoretically self-limiting. And hopefully 2) would help cut down on the time 1) would be necessary.

Of course, the odds of these happening are about as long as the odds against Koy's original proposal.

Andy