Polar Bear

For me ... I don't think that witnessing any one particular event would convince me of its miraculous status, nor would it convince me that its author was the Christian God of the Bible.

However, I certainly think that witnessing several consistent events over a long period of time, in the company of otherwise sober and skeptical people who agreed that we had experienced the same thing, would go a long way towards convincing me that I had seen something supernatural -- a miracle, perhaps.

(Isn't the divine-intervention aspect the only difference between a merely supernatural event and a miraculous event?)

For instance -- suppose that the Internet Infidels had a convention. During the keynote address, a shining figure appeared among us and spoke to us without speaking aloud, i.e. through telepathy. As the figure spoke it passed among us and touched people on the back, shoulder, forehead, etc. so that we physically felt its presence. The figure told us that we were being given the gift of healing in the name of Jesus Christ, and that our mission was to go and spread peace in his name.

At the same time, all of the Internet Infidels who were unable to attend the convention experienced exactly the same thing in their own homes, places of business, and so forth.

Any recording instruments present (video and film cameras, tape recorders, etc.) were able to document the entire event.

As soon as the shining being concludes its speech, it vanishes. All of those who experienced its presence are immediately healed of every ailment, whether it be nearsightedness, high cholesterol, diabetes or AIDS. In addition, they have the ability to heal the ailments of others at will, as well as the ability to manifest stigmata on their own bodies and the bodies of others at will. On top of this, each of them are granted the ability to speak or read any human language.

Now, if such an event came to pass, and I not only witnessed it but experienced it -- in other words, I was one of the people so affected -- then I'd certainly have to think that it was the Christian God of the Bible that was responsible. All else being equal, it would seem like grasping at straws to develop some kind of "prankster aliens did this to us" theory.

So that's the kind of miracle it would take to convince me.

Oxymoron

Seriously... there are zillions of documented cases of sick people who live in stressful, cold, rainy environments (ie the UK ) whose health vastly improves when they go somewhere away from stress that's warm.

Nearly. It's more the belief that they are receiving treatment that will work. For example, give someone with a headache a sugar pill, tell them it's an analgesic (or even don't tell them that it isn't); some percentage of the population will report reduction in pain.

This has been double-blind tested: ie the people administering the pill don't know what it is as well as the patients. In some percentage of people, it still "works".

Goliath

Miracles are events that have no natural causes, so if you could prove that an event in history had no natural cause, then I would agree that said event was a miracle.

As for question 2, I'm unsure of what kind of miracles would specifically point to the xian god.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Family Man

Attributed to what?

Yes.

I once went to a show by David Copperfield in which he clearly cut himself in half. Was it a miracle or an illusion? Just because a group of people claim to see a miracle doesn't mean they actually witnessed one.

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: Family Man ]</p>

ELECTROGOD

I have to go deeper on this one.

Why can't people die during the execution of a miracle, is there some kind of rule book about miracles (most miracle claimers can't even use the term correctly, calling an unverifiable fantastic event a miracle and then calling a verifiable everyday occurance like babies a miracle too)? Anyone who survived a disaster while others died claimed it was a miracle they lived...while many others died in the same place where said miracle could not be claimed without the death and destruction of the event.
Would it be a miracle if an madman with a nuclear bomb was somehow killed (clearly by a miracle) before he was able to kill thousands of others?
How about natural disasters (I mean "god's wrath") or epidemics (also "god's wrath")? Would survivors claiming miracles be right? If the town a hurricane was headed for got together and prayed to god for a miracle and the storm actually turned before hitting the town and went down the coast and killed a bunch of people in another town, would that be a miracle?
How about stories in the bible where god's miracles killed scores of people in opposing armies (one example being the parting of the Red Sea and how it's closing by god drown the Egyptian army. Death and miracles?
Is the event of a miracle completely detached from any abilities of humans (i.e. brain power, physical ability). people lifting heavy objects off of the injured is often touted as a miracle even though we know how the human body is capable of this (apart from the influence of any imaginary higher power). Is a scientist happening on the cure for smallpox, which was the largest killer of humans throughout all of history, considered a miracle even though it was the result of his brain power studying the problem?

Is your (and others) definition of "miracles" a set and definable definition that everyone universally can understand/see for themselves.
Or is it a sliding definition that anyone can adjust to fit whatever situation they want it to?

If it is an adjustable definition then the word "miracle" would seem to be another example of "religious slang".

Amie

Hi Oxymoron

are you sure it's zillions?
teasing although I can understand that though, peoples health improving due to climate changes and relaxation however "remission"?

Now I understand how the placebo affect works in regards to medications being that I worked as a nurse however I don't understand the placebo affect in regards to beliefs?

Amie

Miracles

simply an illusion

yes just because someone claims a miracle happens does not always mean one did.

Infinity Lover

Concerning Amie; I find it miraculous how so much charm and lovelyness can recide in one woman.

(And I don't care, if that's off topic )

Amie

hmmm

depends on how he was killed, you stated "clearly by a miracle" so I would say yes. Even if he died of natural causes I think there are many who would say that divine intervention was involved in sparing others. Its not always a point of view I share however I could see where one would draw that conclusion...

possibly, I just don't know. I am not God.

I would not see that as a miracle, I would see that as a change in direction of the storm. However I suppose to the town involved it would indeed be a miraculous event.

Yes death and miracles

Absolutely. Adrenaline is a powerful thing. no miracle there. Humans are capable of much more than some realize...

No I do not think a miracle was involved there, no natural laws were defied in any way...

I think it is a pretty set definition however the term is often used loosely at times by some...

Amie

heh no miracle involved Infinity Don't I wish...
However what is your take? do you think that the possibility is there? or that each supposed miracle ultimately has a rational explanation?