Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dk · 11-01-2002, 02:16 PM

For Glory and Clutch,

Quote:

In 1973
Thus, the average annual failure rate varied from 1 in 14 for the pill to 1 in 5 for the diaphragm and 1 in 3 for periodic abstinence methods. The average failure rate for all methods except sterilization was 14%; the failure rates for black (18%), Hispanic (17%), low-in-come (21%), and teenage females (26%) were higher than they were for other groups (8). For example, low-income women�s heavy reliance on sterilization may be explained in part by the fact that their contraceptive failure rate is 21%, compared with 10% for women with higher in-comes (see Table 4 in reference 8).
----- Reproductive Health of Women, Contraceptives CDC

Quote:

Variation Among Subgroups (1999)
. . Contraceptive failure rates can vary substantially among subgroups of women. The variables most closely associated with the probability of method failure are age, union status, and poverty status. According to the authors, "Poorer women experience a higher probability of failure, regardless of their age or union status or the method that they used. Adolescents and adult women younger than 25 tend to have higher failure rates than do women aged 25-29, whose rates in turn are higher than those of women aged 30 and older. Moreover, women in cohabiting unions generally experience higher rates of contraceptive failure than either married or other unmarried women."1
. . Teens are nearly twice as likely to experience contraceptive failure than women aged 30 years or more. On average, nearly 16% of all adolescent contraceptive users (those aged 19 years or younger) experience method failure during the first 12 months of use. For women aged 20 to 24 years and 25 to 29 years, average 12-month contraceptive failure rates are approximately 13% and 12%, respectively. Roughly 8% of women aged 30 years or older experience contraceptive failure during the first year of method use.
----- <a href="http://www.contraceptiononline.org/contrareport/article01.cfm?art=76" target="_blank"> New Estimates of Contraceptive Failure Rates </a>

I�m not sure why you guys want to argue about this, there is nothing to argue about.

lpetrich · 11-01-2002, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Primal:
... Humans also spend larger amounts of energy on sex and do it more often then animals that do it just to copulate. In fact copulations seems to be a very remote reason for sex as far as humans are concerned.

In fact, by the standards of much of the animal kingdom, our species is rather hopelessly oversexed. We don't come into heat only late in our lives or only for a small fraction of each year or each month.

Quote:

dk:
Evolutionary biologists, historians or evolutionary dogmatists? (on them being evil bloodthirsty racists...)

A TOTALLY irrelevant comment.

lpetrich · 11-01-2002, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dk:

The government gets involved in people's sex lives because people don't take care of their families. Unfortunately the carnage spills from the home to taint the entire society.

Except that sex can be separated from reproduction. Use birth control or practice alternative sex acts.

Glory · 11-01-2002, 03:48 PM

dk,

1973? things have chnaged in 29 years.

I found very different numbers.

Numbers listed are # of pregnancies per 100 women using each method, in the first year of use.

Continuous abstinence- Typical Use(TU)- 0.00 / Perfect Use(pu)- 0.00

Norplant Implant- Tu- 0.05 / pu- 0.05

Sterilization-
men- tu- 0.15 / pu- 0.01
women- tu- 0.05 / pu-0.05

Depo Provera- tu- 0.03 / pu- 0.03

IUD-
Paraguard(copperT 380A)- tu- 0.8 / pu- 0.6
Progestasert- tu- 2.0 / pu- 1.5
mirena(copperT 380A)- tu- 0.1 / pu- 0.1

Lunelle injection- tu- N/A / pu- 0.1

The Pill
combination- tu- 5.0 / pu- 0.1
progestin only- tu- 5.0 / pu- 0.5

Male condom- tu- 14.0 / pu- 3.0

Withdrawl- tu- 19.0 / pu- 4.0

Diaphragm- tu- 20.0 / pu- 6.0

Cervical Cap-
women who have not given birth- tu- 20.0 / pu- 9.0
Women who have given birth- tu- 40.0 / pu- 30.0

Female Condom- tu- 21.0 / pu- 5.0

Predicting Fertility-
periodic abstinence- tu- 20.0 / pu- N/A
Post ovulation method- tu- N/A / pu- 1.0
simptothermal method- tu- N/A / pu- 2.0
Cervical mucous (ovulation) method- tu- N/A / pu- 3.0
calendar method- tu- N/A / pu- 9.0

Spermicide- tu- 26.0 / pu- 6.0

No Method- tu- 85.0 / pu- 85.0

Data courtesy of Planned Parenthood.

Glory

[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: Glory ]

The Other Michael · 11-01-2002, 04:01 PM

Tronvillain,

Please check your private messages

Michael
MF&P Moderator, First Class

Glory · 11-01-2002, 04:11 PM

So, it seems to depend on what you consider unreliable and wether or not you consider a woman's failure to use a given method properly a failure of the method itself. The numbers you use include cases of the most common mistakes made employing birth control such as forgetting to take one's pill, not applying the device correctly, inconsistent use, and substandard products. Also, IUD's, a very reliable method of contraception, are under utillised with in that study.

The article you linked to illustrates how effective birth control is when used properly.

Glory

Ion · 11-01-2002, 07:47 PM

I haven't read the entire thread, but below is my take on pre-marital sex anyway, even though I am not married.

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave:

...
Do you regret having sex before marriage, either with your current spouse or with other people?

In the future if I marry, I won't regret all the sex before marriage.

Marriage is who is compatible with who, including sex: people who marry without having prior sexual experience, don't know what they will get in a married partner, a low sex drive person or a high sex drive person.

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave:

...
Do you think you would be happier if you had only ever had sex with this one person?

No.

Sex is a technique one works on, so people who didn't practice through different relationships, are not good at it.

Good sex is the current attraction to be faithful to if it works, and experience too.

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave:

...
Would it have been more special if you had waited until your wedding night to do it?

That's special ignorance only.

Sex -in marriage too- is attraction to a partner, including knowing techniques from prior experiences.

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave:

...
Do you feel jealous about the other people your spouse slept with before you were married to each other?

Not if the spouse didn't know me then, to make me the first choice. Then it's the spouse's life experience.

tronvillain · 11-01-2002, 07:49 PM

The Other Michael, it's tronvillain, not Tronvillain.

Clutch · 11-02-2002, 05:11 AM

dk, math wizard,

Quote:

I�m not sure why you guys want to argue about this, there is nothing to argue about.

Duck, dodge, twist and turn... anything except honest engagement, hmmm?

For the fifth time, here is what there is to argue about: Your claim that

Quote:

abortion remains the only statistically reliable means of birth control, so the frequency of abortion comments directly upon the reliability of preventive birth control.

Yet again you post quotes irrelevant to this inference. As for why we're arguing about it, the answer is simple: because your posts are entirely compounded out of non-sequiturs like this. Focussing on them one at a time, and letting you hang yourself in public with a braid of evasion and deliberate obtuseness, is an effective response.

Remember, I initially characterized your elementary fallacy is but "one misshapen clod" in your avalanche of non-sequiturs. Had you simply admitted the obvious -- that it's an unsound inference -- we'd be long done with this one, and onto the next.

atrahasis · 11-02-2002, 06:31 AM

I think dk only does well in purely philosophical discussions.
Its useless to discuss this matter with him - too much brainwashed I guess.

11-01-2002, 03:48 PM	#284
Glory Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: b Posts: 673	dk, 1973? things have chnaged in 29 years. I found very different numbers. Numbers listed are # of pregnancies per 100 women using each method, in the first year of use. Continuous abstinence- Typical Use(TU)- 0.00 / Perfect Use(pu)- 0.00 Norplant Implant- Tu- 0.05 / pu- 0.05 Sterilization- men- tu- 0.15 / pu- 0.01 women- tu- 0.05 / pu-0.05 Depo Provera- tu- 0.03 / pu- 0.03 IUD- Paraguard(copperT 380A)- tu- 0.8 / pu- 0.6 Progestasert- tu- 2.0 / pu- 1.5 mirena(copperT 380A)- tu- 0.1 / pu- 0.1 Lunelle injection- tu- N/A / pu- 0.1 The Pill combination- tu- 5.0 / pu- 0.1 progestin only- tu- 5.0 / pu- 0.5 Male condom- tu- 14.0 / pu- 3.0 Withdrawl- tu- 19.0 / pu- 4.0 Diaphragm- tu- 20.0 / pu- 6.0 Cervical Cap- women who have not given birth- tu- 20.0 / pu- 9.0 Women who have given birth- tu- 40.0 / pu- 30.0 Female Condom- tu- 21.0 / pu- 5.0 Predicting Fertility- periodic abstinence- tu- 20.0 / pu- N/A Post ovulation method- tu- N/A / pu- 1.0 simptothermal method- tu- N/A / pu- 2.0 Cervical mucous (ovulation) method- tu- N/A / pu- 3.0 calendar method- tu- N/A / pu- 9.0 Spermicide- tu- 26.0 / pu- 6.0 No Method- tu- 85.0 / pu- 85.0 Data courtesy of Planned Parenthood. Glory [ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: Glory ]</p>

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11-01-2002, 04:01 PM	#285
The Other Michael Honorary Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In the fog of San Francisco Posts: 12,631	Tronvillain, Please check your private messages Michael MF&P Moderator, First Class

11-01-2002, 04:11 PM	#286
Glory Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: b Posts: 673	So, it seems to depend on what you consider unreliable and wether or not you consider a woman's failure to use a given method properly a failure of the method itself. The numbers you use include cases of the most common mistakes made employing birth control such as forgetting to take one's pill, not applying the device correctly, inconsistent use, and substandard products. Also, IUD's, a very reliable method of contraception, are under utillised with in that study. The article you linked to illustrates how effective birth control is when used properly. Glory

11-01-2002, 07:49 PM	#288
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	The Other Michael, it's tronvillain, not Tronvillain.

11-02-2002, 06:31 AM	#290
atrahasis Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South of Sahara Posts: 216	I think dk only does well in purely philosophical discussions. Its useless to discuss this matter with him - too much brainwashed I guess.

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