Calzaer

I'm certainly having a hard time arguing with that.

But on a purely emotional level, I resent being asked to turn my other cheek, when it was THEIR god who allegedly commanded THEM to do such.

Heathen Dawn

All right, I get it and I find most of your points agreeable.

Just don't think all theists would respond the way your exemplars did. Some are receptive to attempts at breaking stereotypes, some aren't.

Biff the unclean

I cannot help but notice that both the blacks and the gays tried the position you advocate. Be nice, be meek, be respectful and they will realize that you are people just like they are.

It didn't work for either of them.

Bullies, and that's what we are talking about in their cases and ours, do not respond well to behavior like that. People who do return decent behavior for decent behavior are already, by their very nature, not causing anyone a problem.

The Other Michael

Hi QueenofSwords,

I think the only question you need to ask when you get there is:

Do you know why I agreed to come here instead of staying home like any sensible person would do?



I have faith, lo, greater than a mustard seed, that you can come up with some way to get out of this appointment.

cheers,
Michael

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by The Other Michael
I think the only question you need to ask when you get there is:

Do you know why I agreed to come here instead of staying home like any sensible person would do?



Seriously, though, I don't want anyone thinking that I am frightened of a debate - and, by extension, that whatever atheists think is so feeble that it can't stand up to the scrutiny of a Bible-study leader with ten Revised Standard Versions under his belt.

Moreover, this is my chance to show them that I am a more-or-less pleasant and intelligent person who is simultaneously an atheist. Maybe they haven't met many atheists before, and therefore they don't realize that I am very happy being what I am.

It's not my intention to make sport of them (I save that for the Nutwatch and a few of my favorite fundies on this board). But I want them to realize that atheism is a rational and sensible viewpoint - and one that does not preclude a person from being moral, being fun and enjoying life.

Big order, I know.

Heathen Dawn

Thanks, Biff, for saying what I wanted to say with the right words I hadn't thought of. Yes, we're talking about bullies, people who relish in their stereotypes and don't want them broken.

The strategy of breaking stereotypes only works with those who were open-minded in the first place.

Nowhere357

No, atheism does not merit a capital "A". The dictionary contradicts you on this point.

Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: 1Chris�tian
Main Entry: athe�ist

Biff the unclean

Merriam-Webster whose publishing parent company is owned by the Church of Latter Day Saints. Uh huh.

Rusting Car Bumper

I wholly agree with you as well.

Its important to add that the approach I propose will not work on everyone. Of course no approach does. There will always be bigots, jerks, and fascists. Also, its a road which is the long way. It would take a long concerted effort.

In order to change them we need to change ourselves

DC

Rusting Car Bumper

Of course it did. You are simply mistaken.

Civil rights and additionally civil respect for blacks was forwarded best by MLK Jrs non-violent direct action. In his own words the movement was both militant and proactive. It was not meek and passive.

My neighbors aren't bullies. Nor our most of the family members of atheists who simply don't understand why their loved ones can't believe in god.

They are no different than common people of middle America who thought blacks were once stupid and lazy but now commonly think otherwise. Do you seriously think this view changed because someone carried a protest sign? No they did it because of the direct (albeit gradual) recognition of their humanity.

You are basically making the same mistake as Christians. You are casting that people are permanently "fallen" and no amount of work can change it.

I'm not talking about changing the far extremist bigots whose minds will never change. I am talking about the largest mass. That mass being the mass of the semi-indifferent middle who do not have their minds invested in hate but instead are led to it as if its good. It's that mass that changed to move blacks to civil respect and its that mass that is now moving for gays. It could be that mass if people like would accept the facts of history and not forward defeatist, cynical and negative attitudes... attitudes which are no different that those fundamentalists we are supposed to oppose.

DC