Freethought & Rationalism Archive

K · 09-10-2002, 12:41 PM

Given the definitions you have for free will, it would appear that electrons have free will while humans probably do not. What human decision is made without prior causes?

Starboy · 09-10-2002, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by K:
Given the definitions you have for free will, it would appear that electrons have free will while humans probably do not. What human decision is made without prior causes?

Dicisions made with the flip of a coin.

Starboy

K · 09-10-2002, 01:15 PM

Starboy:

That is actually the coin's decision. The human's decision is made from observing the output of the coin toss.

Starboy · 09-10-2002, 03:33 PM

The coin is a decision making machine that is used by a human. The decision is random.

Starboy

K · 09-10-2002, 04:44 PM

Then to extend that further, a computer that prompted a human with a coin for an input has free will. Let's say the computer moves the cursor up if the human enters an H and down if the human enters a T. The human flips the coin, enters the result in the computer, and the computer moves. This computer then has free will. It is just using the human-coin machine to make its decision. Does it really make sense to say that this computer which is slaved to the input of the human has free will?

Starboy · 09-10-2002, 05:14 PM

You got me K. Free will implies the intent to make a choice. If you gave the computer intent then it could have free will. That would require that there was some process in the computer that required a random decision and the human was just part of the decision making machanism, a mere detail.

Starboy

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]

hinduwoman · 09-10-2002, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christopher Lord:


Choosing implies a choice, as was stated earlier. A typical game AI MUST respond in a certain way to certain input. There is no choice in the matter.

But in the Microsoft Chess game, the same move by me or same sequence of moves by me does not always bring the same response. Obviously some kind of randomizer is at work and the software chooses from various options. The options might be limited and created by man, but the point is the software chooses from options, instead of responding in a certain way to a certain input.

K · 09-11-2002, 05:30 AM

Starboy:

I think including the intent gives a definition of free will that is much closer to the standard one. That eliminates coins, dice, and electrons from having free will.

While I believe that human decisions are made only through brain state and current inputs, I am willing to say that humans have free will if it is defined as the intent and ability to make a choice. Then computer games with intent would also have free will.

Now the question is - how do we define intent?

Starboy · 09-11-2002, 05:37 AM

K, intent appears to imply consciousness, but I don't think that is necessary. I think all that is needed is a drive or motivation to be or do something. Animals are motivated to survive; perhaps a computer game could be motivated to win.

Starboy

Mr. Sammi · 09-11-2002, 11:26 AM

Mabye we forget that computers are only extensions of ourselves. To decide if computers choose, we must put a few humans who were taught the game by the gamers, to respond to the psuedo-input.

Would you think the humans are choosing their responses, even if they were rolling dice to constrain their responses.

Even better let the gamers play the part of the computer. What are the results? Would you say the humans chose the set of responses AND the computer only has to pick one and leave the rest of the options in cyberland.

Sammi Na Boodie ()

09-10-2002, 05:14 PM	#66
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	You got me K. Free will implies the intent to make a choice. If you gave the computer intent then it could have free will. That would require that there was some process in the computer that required a random decision and the human was just part of the decision making machanism, a mere detail. Starboy [ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

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09-10-2002, 12:41 PM	#61
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Given the definitions you have for free will, it would appear that electrons have free will while humans probably do not. What human decision is made without prior causes?

09-10-2002, 01:15 PM	#63
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Starboy: That is actually the coin's decision. The human's decision is made from observing the output of the coin toss.

09-10-2002, 03:33 PM	#64
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	The coin is a decision making machine that is used by a human. The decision is random. Starboy

09-10-2002, 04:44 PM	#65
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Then to extend that further, a computer that prompted a human with a coin for an input has free will. Let's say the computer moves the cursor up if the human enters an H and down if the human enters a T. The human flips the coin, enters the result in the computer, and the computer moves. This computer then has free will. It is just using the human-coin machine to make its decision. Does it really make sense to say that this computer which is slaved to the input of the human has free will?

09-11-2002, 05:30 AM	#68
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Starboy: I think including the intent gives a definition of free will that is much closer to the standard one. That eliminates coins, dice, and electrons from having free will. While I believe that human decisions are made only through brain state and current inputs, I am willing to say that humans have free will if it is defined as the intent and ability to make a choice. Then computer games with intent would also have free will. Now the question is - how do we define intent?

09-11-2002, 05:37 AM	#69
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	K, intent appears to imply consciousness, but I don't think that is necessary. I think all that is needed is a drive or motivation to be or do something. Animals are motivated to survive; perhaps a computer game could be motivated to win. Starboy

09-11-2002, 11:26 AM	#70
Mr. Sammi Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montr�al Posts: 367	Mabye we forget that computers are only extensions of ourselves. To decide if computers choose, we must put a few humans who were taught the game by the gamers, to respond to the psuedo-input. Would you think the humans are choosing their responses, even if they were rolling dice to constrain their responses. Even better let the gamers play the part of the computer. What are the results? Would you say the humans chose the set of responses AND the computer only has to pick one and leave the rest of the options in cyberland. Sammi Na Boodie ()

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