fromtheright

Buffman,

What saddens me the most about some of these recent posts is the lack of any comment about them by other, less rabid and seemingly more honest and knowledgeable, theists.

Are you referring to me? For the record, I tried getting onto IIDF last night and had trouble connecting and have been working today, as though I should have to defend the fact that I am not on IIDF at any particular moment. I have other personal obligations to go to this evening, if you will permit me, but will return at my own convenience, thank you. From a cursory review of the exchanges since I last opted to participate in this thread, however, it looks like you and Radorth and company are doing pretty well on your own, so I could care less what anyone thinks about whether I have participated. Also, by the way, I have nothing to add to any exchange w/ ybnormal if his position is that I have come at this with anything less than honesty. I don't wish to distinguish personal attacks and pissing contests.

That said, if you wish to continue a mutually respectful exchange of information and viewpoints I'll be glad to do so, but on no other basis.

Buffman

fromtheright

You are a very long way from being the only Christian that ever reads and posts in these forums or who contacts me via other means. Interesting that you should think that I would be referring just to you. However, since I began this topic about David Barton Automatons, you continue to seem to seek ways to exonerate his dishonesty or justify his conclusions based on his faulty historical scholarship. Why?

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

Radorth

It's totally relevant if anyone is interested in what the founders MEANT by separation. Would they care if a child offered a prayer to Jesus in class? Would they care if Jefferson's favorite Bible verses were pasted on every public building? Did they care if every kid had to read Pilgim's Progress? Would they care if the Ten Commandments were posted in all public buildings? Did they have a problem with people swearing or saying "so help me God" as a policeman? Indeed, would they encourage it? If the Boy Scouts didn't want to change their oath? If they didn't want Christian chaplains in government, why did they hire them?

Of course it's relevant.

Rad

Radorth

What's telling is that you have no idea of the founder's beliefs were or, I'm beginning to think, what mine are. You go around accusing people of lying and thwarting truth and revising history, when that is all any atheist has attempted here. You're a strict separationist automaton yourself. It doesn't dawn on you that I might believe what they did, even what Jefferson said about the "rags of the clergy" and that they could have cared less if the Bible were taught in school. Criminy, I bet 80% of the Christian teachers had doubts about the miracles.

They all read Pilgim's Progress back then, and is there one single scrap of evidence anybody complained? Is there one scrap of evidence anyone complained about reading the Sermon on the Mount in class or that a class prayer was said?

But guess what? I don't think we should allow such. I do think we ought to be able to say the founders were not really deists or that they one and all believed Jesus was the greatest moral teacher, because it is simply so. But you'd throw a holy Automaton Atheist fit if such were taught to your kid, wouldn't you?

Criminy.

Rad

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Radorth ]</p>

Radorth

Pot's Patronizing Post of the Year.

Kettle

fromtheright

Buffman,

Your comment I was referring to had nothing to do with who reads and posts in "these forums" and who contacts you by other means, but about "some of these recent posts". Would you care to detail whose "comment about them by other, less rabid and seemingly more honest and knowledgeable, theists" was missing? Forgive me for responding to what you said rather than what you meant. If you weren't referring to me, then my apologies but

since I began this topic about David Barton Automatons, you continue to seem to seek ways to exonerate his dishonesty

how about sharing with the class how I have done so when I have repeatedly disavowed his methods and in fact you noted respect for me for doing so. Or have you forgotten? Did you decide you had come too close to chumming with the Christian Right? You are tremendous at the research and debate <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> ; have you gotten tired and decided it's time to start in with name-calling?

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: fromtheright ]</p>

Radorth

Interview with Ben Franklin:

Mr. F: I hear behavior and quality of education in the public schools is so bad that millions of parents send their kids to Christian schools or they teach them at home. Is that true?

Yes sir, it is. Some kids were bringing guns to school. They now have guards and metal detectors.

Mr F: My, my. Why, in my day, we never thought twice about sending our kids to school. I hear the kids have filthy mouths and sex among teenagers is very common, and some of them can get abortions without even telling their parents! And well... they do things we never dreamed of. In my day, speaking out of turn was a serious offense.

Yes sir. You know I myself can remember when chewing gum in class was not allowed.

Mr. F: I hear a small minority of atheists in the country are going around saying we founders were against reading the Bible in school. Is that true?

Yes sir, it is. Some people get very offended if a kid even quotes the Bible in an essay. Reading anything from it is strictly prohibited. The strict separatists have pretty much had their way in the Supreme Court.

Mr F: My. In my day we didn't even have atheists in America. We didn't want them here. I hear they even have atheist websites on your new Internet, and they say we founders were mostly deists. As you know, I was a deist once, but came to believe in an after life and a judgement, to see God was greatly involved in the affairs of men. Do they know that?

I've never heard those facts ever proffered by an atheist. In fact they say they only believe in one less God than you did.

Mr. F: Well I certainly see why you have so many problems. Where does the moral restraint come from then? I certainly hope these atheists are better behaved than they were in my day.

I can log you on to my computer, if you like sir.

Mr. F: I don't think that will be necessary.

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: Radorth ]</p>

gravitybow

What's telling is that your beliefs are based on conterfeit and recontexed quotes you've littered the floor with without apology. That speaks more to your character than your beliefs.

You forgot the part where Buffman makes the charges stick.

I dunno. I kinda' liked it.

Reads more like Ben Frankenstein...


Apparently, Ben has developed Alzheimer's in his exceptionally advanced age, having already addressed the exact same question asked seconds apart.
(added: Not to mention that Rad forgot he had just asked the question.)






(I think Ben needs a few more grammar lessons.)

Radorth, you really descended into comical absurdity with that last post. Thanks for the humor.

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: gravitybow ]</p>

Radorth

Well you made one good point anyway. Sorry for the errors. My wife was calling, and you know how we promisekeepers are.

Rad

Radorth

Would you like to see some Franklin quotes BTW, particularly the one about the lack of atheists in America?

No? The context makes no difference there either? Barton must have made it up you say?

Rad