emur

I cannot say that some do not experience guilt at the poor treatment of fellow Christians. However, many don't see the poor treatment as wrong. They sincerely believe that they are doing right by God. Like the charismatics that split my friend's church and caused him to lose his ministry there, or the denominational director who felt it appropriate to call me a smooth talker in order to discredit me before one of my elders. Such people go on, feeling "right in the Lord" and glad to serve him.

No, it just shows how arbitrary God is in intervening; not very loving.



Unless someone doesn't believe the "right" doctrines or behaves in the "right" ways.

If the OT is to be believed, God does force proper behavior. What does your illustration have to do with God's children mistreating other children of his?

I wasn't refering to this statement. I was refering to your "Who are you..." questions to me. You appeared to be making me the problem, just as Job's friends were making him the problem.

In my observation, this is highly unlikely.

Now you are making me the problem again. Speaking about painful life experiences with hurtful Christians and questioning God's love is hardly judgmental.

It doesn't confer the right to have ALL my questions answered. It does confer the right to be treated with love if I am told that I am loved.

The salad illustration? You may not mean to, but it looks like you are grasping at straws. Human sentience cannot be compared to lettuce.

Kinda difficult to see the beauty of creation when Christians are destroying your church or threatening your life.

I don't believe my life is a miracle. Sometimes I think that the fact I have survived evangelicalism is though.

Thank you.

It hasn't ceased to amaze me yet how Christians will justify genocide. As for the rest of what you had to say, I've heard it all before in attempts to get me to believe the "right" doctrines or act in the "right" ways. It's just more manipulation to get people to believe and behave in ways that others want them to.

Mel

LuckyCharm

Not really. Pascal's wager says, "I believe, because of what might happen if I don't." That's not faith; that's cowardice. True faith says, "I believe, Lord -- now lead me on the path of life."

So you would have preferred not to have free will? It amuses me, how many atheists would have rather been robots. Fine, then -- if that's what you want, I'm sure you'll have it! I don't even want to think about who or what you're following instead. Me, I prefer my freedom, thank you, even if it means I might sometimes make mistakes, and costly ones at that! The alternative would simply be unbearable to someone like me.

And? What's your point? I've already said that "Christians are human, too, and like all human beings, we tend to excuse, rationalize and deny our own bad behavior." Jesus has harsh words for people who use religion as a cover for their own selfish motives, BTW.

It only seems arbitrary because you don't have all the data. If you were able to see it from God's perspective, it would look very different. If you've ever managed people, you'll know that you often have to make decisions that seem arbitrary and unfair to your subordinates, and you aren't always able to give them all the information they might want.

I'm afraid I'm not following you here. What exactly are you referring to?

Allright, what I originally said was, "Sometimes He will intervene, and sometimes not, for whatever His reasons, just as a loving parent might bail a rebellious teenager out of jail once, maybe even twice. Will he do it a third time? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe this would be a good opportunity to teach a lesson in responsibility and consequences..." How are you getting from that to "mistreatment"?

Well, I could have just quoted the Bible instead. Maybe I should have. "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the LORD. 'Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel!'" (Jer 18:6) "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (Rom 9:21) This isn't the same as passing judgment on you in response to your suffering. On the contrary, it is a humble acknowledgment that God doesn't owe us anything -- not even an explanation.

Well, it wouldn't be something you would observe, obviously. I, for one, am very glad that Jesus sees beneath appearances to my heart, unlike people who would pass judgment on me based on the little they can know of me through casual acquaintance.

Sounds like you have a bit of "baggage" there. Can't you forgive your fellow human beings for being weak and fallible? For your own sake, I'd recommend it -- aside from the teachings of Jesus, forgiveness just makes sense from a health perspective, if nothing else.

From your point of view, maybe not. If you were infinitely wise, I'll bet you'd see it differently.

So you're going to let a few long-forgotten enemies destroy even your ability to enjoy the present? Let it go....

First of all, it doesn't matter a bit to me what you believe or how you behave. But justifying genocide? Where on earth are you getting that from?

~~Cheryl

HelenM

I've never really liked that approach, myself . If it seems arbitrary and unfair, then it probably is and there's some cover-up going on, or perhaps it's that the manager is being evasive instead of telling the employee the truth that he/she is not doing the work that needs doing.

I hope that God is not too evasive to tell the truth, nor trying to 'cover up' some things that it wouldn't be in God's best interests for people to know

Helen

emur

So the "born again" experience only works for some Christians? Where's the indwelling Holy Spirit in these people?

In my dealing with people, I always give them the full reasons why I make decisions that affect them. I don't keep them in the dark.

God has been pretty harsh on those who didn't believe properly or behave properly. Read your OT or the story of Ananias and Saphirra. These cases are used as examples to not act compassionately toward those differed with on matters of doctrine and practice.

The subject I was talking about was mistreatment - God's children mistreating his children. How you got to the above from that I do not know.

If the above quotes are true, God can do whatever he wants to whomever he wants. And the victims of such treatment are just to keep their mouths shut. Sounds like abuse to me. By the way, quoting the bible doesn't make you sound any less like Job's friends.

Yep, one can go out during the day and treat his fellow Christians like dirt and then go to bed at night in tears over what he has done, and the next day the cycle begins all over again. And of course Jesus wraps them in his everlasting arms, only to have the cycle repeat again and again. Come on!

Funny how these "convicted" people don't say 'I'm sorry' to those they have mistreated.
Seems to me you are just making excuses for them.

Let me get this straight. If someone has been treated poorly by a particular group of people, and they mention openly the pain and the hypocrisy of it, they have "baggage"? Do you really think that someone like me who brings these issues to the forefront is eaten up with an unforgiving attitude? Believe me, I am not.

This is just making me the problem instead of dealing with the real issues. Nice try. I'm used to this attitude from Christians.

Oh, it's not that way now, but it was that way when I was in the midst of it. You come across like a person who doesn't feel hurts and injustices very deeply. If that is who you are, fine, but not everyone is like you.

It would be nice if the Christian "enemies" were few. They are numerous.

I'll not let it go in the way you mean. Change for the better in the world will not happen if we ignore injustices and the belief systems that feed them.

Earlier, I quoted 1 Samuel 15:2-3. That passage where God commands Israel to wipe out a race of people for something previous generations did hundreds of years before. Picture those infants being ripped out of their mothers arms and murdered along with everyone else. Your response seemed to justify it.

I take it then that you agree with me that such killing was savage and uncalled for? Or is this just another one of those "we cannot understand God's actions because we don't have all the facts" things?

It's no wonder some Christians are as harsh as they are. They actually believe this was a good thing, being that God called for it and such.

Mel

PS - I realize that at some point you cannot keep responding. I hope your deployment goes well.

LuckyCharm

It's easy to make assumptions when we're talking about a hypothetical situation. However, I'm a prime example of that right now -- I know that I have been reassigned to a military unit that has a mobilization date of 24 Jan 03. I know the name of the unit and where it is located. I do not know where we're headed or for how long, which could seem pretty arbitrary and unfair to the casual observer. Does somebody know? Of course they do. Why aren't they telling us? No idea. Is there a good reason? Probably. Do I even care why? What difference would it make? I don't have the option to change anything. All I can do is keep in close contact with all my resources to get whatever information is available, as soon as possible.

As a Christian, I believe God's best interests are my best interests, and He reveals to me what I need to know as I need to know it. No parent would discuss the family finances, or why daddy didn't come home last night, or why Uncle Jimmy went to jail, with a three-year-old in the same way they'd discuss it with their spouse. And although we think ourselves very wise and mature and able to comprehend anything and everything, the fact is we're not. It's difficult even to imagine living in a six-dimensional world -- how much more incomprehensible are the things of God?

I don't know about the "born again experience." I believe we are continually being "reborn" and recreated, moment by moment, through our own choices and by the grace of God. I cannot speak for the Holy Spirit's activity or lack of it in anybody's else's life, and personally never even speculate on that subject -- dangerous territory, IMO. Jesus said that many who call Him "Lord, Lord" will be shunned at the gates of heaven with a curt, "Depart from me -- I never knew you." All I can do is pray that I will never hear those chilling words from Him...

So, some people use that Scripture, which describes an act of God, as justification for taking judgment into their own hands? Interesting... I seem to recall Someone saying something to the effect of, "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone".... But then again, I don't debate others' use of Scripture. We know that the Bible contains "some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures" (2 Pet 3:16). All I can do is try my best to interpret Scripture according to the light that is given me -- others will have to account for their own behavior.

Okay, the original sequence went:

ME: God isn't going to enforce proper behavior on us, though. Sometimes He will intervene, and sometimes not, for whatever His reasons, just as a loving parent might bail a rebellious teenager out of jail once, maybe even twice. Will he do it a third time? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe this would be a good opportunity to teach a lesson in responsibility and consequences...
YOU: If the OT is to be believed, God does force proper behavior. What does your illustration have to do with God's children mistreating other children of his?

I still don't see where "mistreatment" comes into this...

I'm sure it does, to you. The fact is, God can do whatever He wants to whomever He wants. And as the Creator, He has every right to do so, without explanation if He so desires! Our pride naturally rebels against this reality -- who is God, that He should have all the power, and do whatever He wants, regardless of our own personal will?

Because I believe God created us in love and for love, and loves every one of us infinitely, I trust in His perfect will, even if it sometimes contradicts my own. No responsible parent would grant every wish and whim of a young child, and any responsible parent will sometimes make choices that, to the child, seem painful and possibly even cruel. But that is because the child is operating from a limited base of knowledge and experience. And our base of knowledge and experience, vast as it may appear to our own eyes, is miniscule compared to God's.

Suppose you came to me and said, "How can you stand to be married to such a horrible man, knowing that every day he drugs people to sleep, cuts them open, and removes parts of their body, sometimes even without their knowledge and consent?" If I were married to a surgeon, I would probably reply, "It makes them better." "But how can it possibly make them better?" you might ask. "Look, I am not a surgeon, and I don't have all the technical details," I'd say. "For that, you'll have to ask him. But I know my husband, and I know he is a good man. I trust that he would never intentionally harm anyone." If I can have that much faith in a fellow human creature, weak and fallible as we all are, how much greater is my faith in the One who loves me everlastingly?

I was thinking about this earlier, and what I originally said was something to the effect of, "Who are you to require an accounting from God for His actions?" which you compared to Job's friends "making him the problem." I don't see how I was doing that, in that case.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I do not presume to know how Jesus deals with folks who abuse others, but I suspect His everlasting arms don't always feel so gentle and comfortable to them...

I don't excuse or explain anyone else's behavior, especially when I don't even know them. I do believe no true reconciliation is possible without repentance, and as Christians, we are called to a ministry of reconciliation. Jesus told us to be reconciled with our brethren before even thinking about approaching God. So, if certain people have failed to apologize for their misbehavior, they are probably wrong, and will have to answer to the One they claim to serve. But it is not for me to judge, thank God.

That's good to know. It's just that some of your statements sounded rather bitter. I apologize if I misunderstood anything.

BTW, Jesus said that if people are not treating us rightly, we are to walk away, shaking the dust from our feet. In other words, don't let any remnant cling to us as we move on. To me, that's a pretty healthy attitude to adopt.

What "real issues"? I cannot say who is at fault with this "problem," but asking people who are totally removed from the situation to justify or resolve it isn't really dealing with it, IMO. Jesus told us to confront those who have wronged us -- so far, you haven't mentioned ever doing that, or have you?

Actually, I do feel them very deeply, and I have the high blood pressure to prove it! But I have realized that clinging to painful memories doesn't do anybody any good, and actually does me a great deal of harm. With God's help, I am learning to let go, one step at a time...

We are absolutely called to work for peace and justice for all. But we'll be most effective in that endeavor if we can do so with a light spirit, unencumbered by the foul "dust" of the past.

Both, possibly. I don't know whether God really ordered the slaughter you're referring to, or whether this is just the way the story was recorded in order to make heroes out of those leaders in Israel's history books. If the former, then yes, I believe God knew what He was doing, even if I don't. If the latter, then those who misspoke in the name of God will have to answer to Him about that. For me, such questions only muddy the issue, because the lesson I take from passages like this is that God takes sin extremely seriously, and I must be as serious in rooting it out of my own life (NOT anybody else's!) as He allegedly commanded the Israelites to be in ridding the land of their enemies. I am not even to tolerate "baby" sins -- anything and everything that interferes with my walk with God must be destroyed. Not put aside for later, not covered up, not minimized, but totally eliminated.

I hope that makes sense. And thanks for the well wishes -- I will actually be sorry when this discussion has to end.

~~Cheryl

THE_LEGENDARY_HQB

Originally posted by LuckyCharm:
Originally posted by emur
If the above quotes (potter/clay references) are true, God can do whatever he wants to whomever he wants. And the victims of such treatment are just to keep their mouths shut. Sounds like abuse to me.

{LuckyCharm}"I'm sure it does, to you. The fact is, God can do whatever He wants to whomever He wants. And as the Creator, He has every right to do so, without explanation if He so desires! Our pride naturally rebels against this reality -- who is God, that He should have all the power, and do whatever He wants, regardless of our own personal will?"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BRAVO!!!!!!!!
:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

Finally, a Christian with the balls to mix their whole "God is Love" syrup with plenty of good ol' fashioned "batterers justice".

*Man*. "God, why are you allowing this to happen? I prayed and prayed for your assistance, but you did nothing. Why?"

*God*. What'd you say? Boy, you better shut yo damn mouth fo' I strike yo sorry ass down with cancer! Impudent human!"

LC, I've seen many Christians come on this board and try to use the free will defense, always a good laugh, though usually bereft of any legitimacy. When I hear someone actually quote the potter/clay references, though, I stop laughing-fast.

Your God, LC, is by any human standards {the only ones anyone can logically use}, an egotistical glory hound. The Biblical description of God's enormous ego and overwhelming desire for praise and adulation are enough, even without considering human suffering, ect., to exclude him from ever being even respected, never mind worshipped by any halfway decent person. Personally, even if I thought the Bible were 100% true, I would rather spend an eternity in the deepest pits of Hell, and keep my conscience clear, than bow in reference to such a despicable God who sits by and demands fawning adulation without lifting a finger to help His "children".

I get frustrated by Christians who attempt to explain away the attrocities of the Bible and the noxious character of the Biblical God by saying "oh, you're just reading it out of context", or "oh, you're interpreting it wrong".

When I run into someone who joyfully uses the potter/clay verses, not to absolve God of any responsibility, but to simply say everything He does is automatically right Ifeel a chill run down my spine.

Fundie Christians, IMHO, need to be called on their supposed "morality". Anyone who:
A. Believes in the Christian God, and
B. Is completely happy and contented with Him as He is described in the Bible, without making any effort to interpret away His horrific nature, has immediately and unconditionally ceded his or her right to ever say a word about morality, or righteousness, or anything pertaining to the human condition, for they are really amoralists, unable or unwilling to recognize any standards of right or wrong outside of their primitive Sky Godfather, who, according to the Bible, is a narcissistic tyrant of infinite proportions.
Sorry for the rant, but this just really irks me.

HQB

LuckyCharm

Okay, I actually found the post I was looking for... thought it had disappeared on me!

Previously in this thread, I said:
"God knows how we are made. We are designed, as my denomination teaches, to love and serve Him. Anything else leads to death and destruction by default. God wants us to have life, and love, and joy, and peace -- he earnestly desires that for us!"

To expand on that a bit, God doesn't demand our devotion for His own sake, but for ours. He is already pure, infinite love, and there is no way we as creatures can "add" to His love.

As pure Love, it gives God pleasure to bestow that love on us, His creatures. Our greatest destiny and calling in life is to live within that love. But we've missed that calling -- we've gone astray, followed our own path, rebelled and rejected that beautiful destiny. And look what we've gotten for it! A world torn by war, strife, greed, enmity, and sorrow. Yet God, out of mercy and love, has embarked on a grand plan to lead us back -- back to the only place we will ever be truly happy, which is within His very heart of love.

It is a long, painstaking process, and rarely do we cooperate as we ought. But God is infinitely patient, and He will not be satisfied with anything less than the best and brightest destiny that He has prepared for us.

That's my take, in a nutshell, FWIW. And if that disqualifies me, in your opinion, to make any moral judgments, well -- I'm just glad I'm not accountable to you in that regard!

~~Cheryl

THE_LEGENDARY_HQB

No, I'm somewhat of a drooling mongoloid when it comes to computers

I myself would be interested if you have adressed the points I brought up, so feel free to encapsulate them.

Respect,
HQB

braces_for_impact

Originally posted by Lucky:

You place limits upon your own deity. Can or cannot your god provide free will without the ability to choose evil? He is god afterall, without limits in power and knowledge.


So what you are essentially saying is MIGHT makes RIGHT. This I understand.



Ah, the teenie weenie human brain argument. Look around at the world. There is simply NO excuse for what happens day to day around the world. NONE. I will grant you that sometimes, even often, people are the cause of their own calamity. But also things happen, and for no good reason. Natural disaster, birth defects, disease, bad luck, you name it. Would some of these horrible situations bring out the best in people? Possibly. Is that worth the incredible amount of suffering going around on this planet? No. The problem is not a matter of perspective. The problem is not that we don't understand, but that we understand all too well. The idea that god is somehow omniscient so it will all work out in the end is a circular argument, bad reasoning, and based on NO evidence. It is an excuse to continue to believe in an all powerful being that loves his pet project. Hence the term apologetics.

Again an appeal to human ignorance. This is an example of another analogy that does not apply. Does any parent condemn any child to an eternity of suffering because the child did not follow the specifed commands of the parent? Does any amount of finite sin warrant an eternal punishment? Of course not. While no responsible parent would grant every wish to a child, a responsible parent ensures that they do their job well in raising their children.



I did not rebel, I did not make a decision to go my own way. According to doctrine two other people have, and I'm paying the price. You seem to forget, your god is the creator of all things. He is according to your doctrine omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. This by default makes HIM resposible for all that happens. He created us knowing the end result. Even granting that we went astray, he KNEW we would. Yet still he created. He is directly responsible.

This is why I disagree most types of religions. They have a very poor view of humanity as wretched, pitful beings. We are sinners, unable to act morally, much less understand ethics. We are stupid because we cannot hope to understand the thoughts of a god. We need "saving". We require "help". Without him we are nothing. Sheer unadulterated poppycock. We created god, we created our own problems (most of them anyay), and only we can correct our own faults. The idea that this god is some being of pure love is pretty recent as far as apologetics goes. Religion started to lose parishoners to the old "fire and brimstone" type of church and adopted a warm fuzzy one instead. It is pick and choose, much like the bible verses used to support statements made in support of religious doctrine.

Edited for spelling and grammar (as best I can anyway).

emur

Posted by LC:
One of the problems with the bible is that it can be interpreted in many ways. That is why there are over 33,000 Christian denominations worldwide. Obviously, God is not a clear communicator.

This whole thread began from my addressing the mistreatment subject with Seebs with respect to God's non-intervention. You chimed in with the free will argument in response.

I have to wonder how much of this comes from your military life. The military way of looking at things is fine for the military, but it doesn't apply to all of life.

On the potter/clay concept, I completely agree with HQB. He said it better than I could.

As for the surgeon illustration, it doesn't work with me. I see the "God's ways are not our ways" as a dodge. God's love is incompatible with the experiences of many people. If you want to believe that he loves you, that's fine.

Those who repeat the cycle don't act as if they are uncomfortable with Jesus. Actions speak louder than words and are an indicator of what is going on in a person's life.

I agree. That's why I walked away from evangelicalism!

I have, and just gotten more thrown in my face.

I agree. Your point is?

I'm glad you at least wonder about this slaughter. It is good to know that you can think beyond the stories of the bible, at least sometimes.

Mel