openeyes

The deck is stacked in the US to expect that you are a believer, and if people find out you are not, many are suspicious of your having any redeeming qualities.

I don't mind talking about my atheism if I get a chance to discuss and elaborate a bit, but if I don't have that chance, I don't want to risk small-minded, negative, unjust responses from people who have invested so much into their "buying" of religion that they can't conceive of people acting morally without one.

For example, when I questioned the appropriateness of my public high school's participation in a baccalaureate event (a religiously-tinged ceremony for graduates) at a PTA meeting, it was quickly evident that I had a minority opinion. When a lower court ruled that "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance probably made its recitation unconstitutional, the reaction was so swift and outraged by the public and our politicians that you would've thought that apple pie had been banned or something. Most polls show that if someone is openly atheist, that they would not be elected to political office simply because of that.

It's been an education for me to realize that England and much of Europe is much more secular in their outlook than the US. I wish the religious folk here could see that your civilizations are not falling apart because of a withdrawal from religious practice. We've got the Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson types blaming our collective behavior for events such as the Trade Center destruction, etc. Many now apparently are trying to find "God's message" in the Columbia shuttle tragedy. Of course, everyone seems to be "hearing" something different from "above".

Raising non-religious kids in this environment is tricky. My two boys are well aware of their minority status. Depending on their personalities and ages it's a problem of varying degrees. On one hand, I don't want them to "suffer" unnecessarily from the small minded types mentioned above, so that's part of the reason I am less public sometimes, but on the other hand, I feel I must speak out and defend the right to be religion-free for their sake and to perhaps "better" society.

My older son (almost 16) has some friends who say they're atheist also, but one kid is quite religious. This friend plays on the same basketball team as my son and I know his parents pretty well. They seem like a "modern" couple-she's a dentist, he's a physical therapist, they travel a fair amount, and they're very competitive when it comes to sports and their kids. But they're also very religious and involved in their church. Their older son has had drug problems and is currently in treatment (a Christian-based one). The one who is my son's friend gets a lots of reward from them for avoiding "vices". Unfortunately he is adopting many of the negative attributes of the highly-religious. For example, my son said this friend was "scoffing" at the fact that they were going to be covering evolution in science soon, since he already knew it didn't make sense. This "friend" also makes disparaging remarks about gay people now and then. He seems to be less generous to people who are different than he. He gets very annoyed when his beliefs or actions are questioned.

I'm not sure if this friend of my son has told his parents about our atheism. I'm thinking he probably has and they don't know what to think (we usually sit by each other at basketball games). Since my son gets very good grades, is respectful, loved by his coach for his work ethic, stays away from unnecessary chemicals, etc., I think they are befuddled. I'm looking for an opportunity to discuss our varying beliefs but so far haven't found one. It's almost too big a topic to broach considering how far gone they are (and I am the other way!)

To get back to the schools for a bit: Although I sensed some hostility at the PTA meeting (just for questioning, not even for "coming out") I have had success and gotten good responses from dealing with the superintendent and the middle school principal one-on-one. It does take some interaction with people before you can get a sense of who you can work with and who will likely be non-supportive.

For my last comment I'd just like to say it's really a challenge with all the religious-types is so many state and federal offices to feel as though you have a voice as a non-religious person. But it's all the more reason to try to use it!

Luiseach

It's only since I left North America and lived in the UK for a while that I realised just how 'religious' North American culture is in comparison to here. Sure, religion exists here, and there are many religious people of varying faiths (just as there are many agnostics and atheists in North America), but I think the general mood in the UK is a kind of impatience with any view which takes itself too seriously, especially when it comes to religion. A mood of wry amusement and raised eyebrows... :-D

VonEvilstein

Actually, in my case the reverse is ture... my Mum once told me that here were only three things I could do that would really, really make her dissappointed in me:

1 - Vote Tory
2 - Become an abuser of women and children
3 - Become a Catholic (although I think joining any organized religion would have the same effect)

In her defence, my mum has no problem with personal faith. Alas, I take more after my Dad - I'll respect the right to beleive, but that's as far as it goes. We both think the religious are several sandwiches and a pork pie short of a full picknick basket.

openeyes

VonEvilstein: Your mum sounds all right to me!

braces_for_impact

The first question I am always asked by a theist when they find out I'm an atheist is "What happened?"

What I think:
What I say:

VonEvilstein

She is, but I'll be sure to tell her an anonymous strager on the internet agrees. It will bring a smile to her face.

[no sarcasm intended whatsoever]

openeyes

VonEvilstein: Well, you can at least tell her I'm a mom too with two boys, and I'd be disappointed in them if they
1) Voted Republican
2) Same as she said
3) Used dogma of any sort as a guide to decision-making.

This may just trigger some thought to what else I could tell my boys as far as possible disappointment in their actions. (Not that I'd want to come up with a long list.) Experts say that it's best to be sure one's kids are getting the message clearly by actually telling them how one feels and not expecting them to discern the unspoken. Not a guarantee that they won't disappoint, but at least they'll know where I stand.

integral domain

I think people are afraid of athiesm b/c they have this idea that the ONLY thing keeping the world in order is God... and that the only reason people try to be good is because of their religious beliefs.

It's kinda like this...

athiest: I don't believe in God.

believer: Well, what do you believe in?

athiest: in humanity

believer: So... why don't you steal... why don't you cheat or lie... what stops you?

athiest: my morality

believer: But where does your morality come from if not from God?

athiest: from me

believer: oh (but thinks... "that's not possible")


Basically, an athiest has no cosmic incentive to be good, nor any overwelming threat preventing him/her from being bad. I believe this is frightening to believers... b/c they just can't believe that a person can be moral for its own sake... b/c all their lives they've been taught that they should be good so that they will go to heaven and be with God.

Rhea

For me it's kinda like this...

atheist: I don't believe in God.

believer: What happened?

atheist: What do you mean?

believer: What happened to make you not believe in God?

atheist: Nothing

believer: What do you mean?

atheist: Nothing happened to make me believe in God. It's just, well, nothing happened.

believer: So... why don't you steal... why don't you cheat or lie... what stops you?

atheist: my morality

believer: But where does your morality come from if not from God?

atheist: Selfishness.

believer: How good can morals be when they're based on selfishness?

atheist: Well it's pretty much of a no-brainer that if I go around killing people that no one will want to hang out with me and some will actively try to stop me by turning the tables and offing me themselves. The same logic applies to all of my morals. I do things that will make me able to survive and thrive in a cooperative society. It doesn't take a God to figure that one out.

believer: but, how can...

atheist: Wait a minute you're saying that you behave for some reason other than it's the way you want to be treated yourself? How do you get out of bed in the morning without a paranoia of running into a non-christian every moment?

integral domain

Not rea... that's a believer and an AYn Rand Objectivist...