Rational Ag

Your statements are incorrect.

According to the<a href="http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,802-1,00.html" target="_blank"> mormon church</a>, they fit your criteria perfectly.

Mormons do adhere to all of your four criteria. Mormons, according to your own definition, True Christians. Don't tell the Baptists!

The real question is: Why aren't you among them?

-Rational Ag

Edited because I can't format

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: Rational Ag ]</p>

ManM

IvanK,
We have established that choosing the lesser of two evils is acceptable. Now let's apply the doctor analogy to Jesus. Jesus desires that we be one, but is forced to divide son from father and so on. The doctor wishes us to be healthy, but may be forced to cause pain. Jesus said he would bring a sword just as the doctor says he needs to bring a scalpel. There is no malice, but only good intent. If you justify the doctor, then you also must either justify Jesus or show that Jesus intended to pointlessly do more harm than necessary. And so the doctor analogy directly addresses your question. My claim is that Jesus was in the exact same position of the doctor, and that is why he said what he did. He desires all to be well, but he also knows he will have to inflict pain. I cannot state the answer more clearly than that.

Let me try to be equally clear with your second question. Jesus is needed because his teachings and life give us a clear path to follow. Romans 2:14-16 discusses what will happen to those who follow Jesus without knowing it. And so in the sense of the passage in Romans, knowledge of Jesus is not necessary. What is necessary is similitude to Jesus, and I feel that is best characterized by the spirit of love. If this is salvation, then the role model himself is of key importance. So in real simple terms, salvation consists of becoming like Jesus. Therefore, knowledge of Jesus is an important part of salvation. Someone may become like Jesus without knowledge of Jesus. This in no way devalues knowledge of Jesus. And if this doesn't answer your question, we must be having a serious communication problem.

bltl6

A True Christian holds that Jesus is God (John 1:1). While a quick look at the Mormon cite found truths about Christ (i.e. savior, he created, suffered on a cross, rose on the third day, etc.), I didn't see a statement like "We believe that Jesus is God in the flesh."

But if they do believe that, then praise God. I asked for a Mormon to come visit me to see if that can be cleared up.

bltl6

I agree with this. I was trying to make it even simpler by just citing Rom. 10:9-10. The only question I have for you GB is if by saying "included in the Godhead" you mean that Jesus is litteraly God. He is a part of the Godhead: God the Father, God the SON (Jesus), and God the H.S. But this isn't three gods--It's one. Of course the issue of the trinity is probably best kept for another thread, but I'm just trying to clarify your points GB.

G B Mayes

bltl6 said:

Yes, the trinity is a difficult topic, but I believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three inseparable parts of God. I may have made my definition too succinct but the point I was trying to make is that there is no great mystery in the Bible as to what constitutes a follower of Christ. The controversy historically and currently has been due to men and women, some well-meaning and some not, focusing on minor matters. It serves only to wrongly complicate the issue and draw our attention away from the cross.

-Brent

HelenM

Yes but, the doctrine really does seem to be a stumbling block for people. So I think you have to deal with it, if it is, and not just say "hey, we're getting distracted here, folks".

Biblically speaking God says you have to deal with genuine questions and not brush them aside:

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, -- 1 Peter 3:15

love
Helen

jojo-sa

so helen could you please explain your idea of the trinity

for i to date cannot understand this idea.

perhaps your words could enlightening

thanks

HelenM

I don't feel confident I can explain the Trinity actually, jo-jo. I don't deny it necessarily but I don't know how to explain it. But then, there are lots of things in life I can't explain so I'm learning to live with that.

Anyway I like the picture the doctrine represents; of three in perfect harmony, so much so that they are entirely one.

I think that's a good goal for human groups, that they find a way to be united without one person simply dominating and negating the views of the rest; but coming to true consensus.

love
Helen

jojo-sa

I think that's a good goal for human groups, that they find a way to be united without one person simply dominating and negating the views of the rest; but coming to true consensus.

true consensus based on the truth and justice

and not on unexplained theories and beliefs

G B Mayes

HelenSL:
I apologize for being unclear. The original post regarded the definition of a "True Christian". bltl6 seemed to imply that he agreed with my overall definition, if I meant Christ was part of the Godhead, not one of three distinct Gods. My reference about complicating the issue was not about the doctrine of the trinity per se, but the countless "requirements" that can be thrown into the mix, diluting the simple message of the essence of Christianity, which is a personal relationship with a living Christ.

That aside, let's consider the concept of the Holy Trinity. It addresses but does not explain the mystery of one God in three forms. When we read the Bible the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are mentioned both individually and as communing one with the other, suggesting three distinct entities. On the other hand they seem closer than that, part of the same essence. Christ says He and the Father are one. He says if you see Him you see the Father. The concept of the Holy Trity is that these three persons are in fact various manifestations of one person. The concept that all three represent one God. To my knowledge the Holy Trinity per se is not in the Bible. It is an extra-biblical concept we use to grasp at this mystery.

It helps me to think of it like this: Take three transparent balls and lay them side by side in a straight line. Look at them from in front.They seem clearly distinct one from the other. Then sight down the row of balls from one end. You seem to see one ball and yet you see all three in that one image. Such is the Holy Trinity. We cannot see one without seeing all three. We cannot distinquish one from the other because they blend together perfectly

-Brent