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Old 08-15-2003, 09:26 AM   #41
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“It bothers me that Jacob stole Esau's birth right, and that his mother (who happened to be mother of Esau, too) was the one who incited him to do it.”

"And especially that David murdered a man so that he could steal his wife, yet his life was spared--unlike Saul, who was killed along with his TWO sons. --btw, David had hundred of concumbines at his disposal."

Somewhat off topic I guess, but the God of the OT, strict and grumpy as he may have been, seemed to be more willing to deal with people who were flawed and less than perfect, “OK so ya whacked dis guy ta do his wife huh? Dees tings happen forgetaboutit, lets talk business” The NT God seems more prissy “ooooo sin ewwwwww get away from me ick, you go to hell”

just a casual observation.
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Old 08-15-2003, 11:40 AM   #42
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marduck, i've always taken it as a package deal. you can't have one without the other. one thing i have done is to look at any one account of God with the understanding, as best i can muster, of His entirety. that has helped me see past what might be misunderstood on the surface.
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Old 08-15-2003, 11:47 AM   #43
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And especially that David murdered a man so that he could steal his wife, yet his life was spared--unlike Saul, who was killed along with his TWO sons. --btw, David had hundred of concumbines at his disposal."
Why blame the Jews. Your gripe should be with God because as you say, everything is as God wants it to be! God is the puppet master and we are the pawns in your belief system. God is the responsible party and there is no amount of mental gymnastics that can absolve an omnimax God of what is.

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Old 08-15-2003, 01:30 PM   #44
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Originally posted by fatherphil
two things:

do you think the behavior listed above is unique only to the characters in the bible?

do you think God choose them because of any thing they did or would do?
God did not choose them for anything that they could do, or had done. God chose them because He said so. God could have chosen anyone to do it, and they would have done it exactly as He would make them do it.

You seem to be ignoring the point, not sure if intentionally or not.

I do not hate anyone, much less the Jews. I love reading Jewish commentaries, I have commentaries by Maimonides, Rashi, and others (found in the Blaskstone Chumash). I have exchanged ideas, which were will received by a Rabbi at (orthodox site).

However, what I have provided evidence for why I believe some hate the Jews. I never said they were justified in this, you are the only who keeps ignoring it.

I think I have provided my case, and I don't see any need to continue exchanging with you on this long.
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Old 08-15-2003, 02:33 PM   #45
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what you have not done was provided a linkage to the offenses committed against the jewish people and their behavior in the ot. also consider the fact that any of us, jews included, tend to not do things the way God intends us to.

restate "the point" and i'll try not to ignore it.
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Old 08-15-2003, 02:51 PM   #46
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The Synoptics and John, especially, use the Jews as "targets" for Junior's wisdom. Certainly, most of them, if not all of them, would not know a Jew if one bit them in the proverbial hiney--misrepresentation of the power of the Pharisees for example.

Is it specifically "anti-semiticism."

That depends on how you define the term. No, I am not aware of a passage in the Synoptics or Jn which encourages bending, folding, spindling, or mutilating Jews. Instead, they are "set up" as fools for various "teachings."

One could counter that "blaming" them for the crucifixion is anti-semitism. As noted above and on other threads dealing with the "historical Junior"--the passion narratives are contradictory and different from what we know about the process.

At the time of composition, Jews would have proven a far more "politically savy" target for blame than the Romans. Indeed, the Romans are seen as passive in Mk--you can fault Pilate for being a weenie . . . and there is that nice Centurian who "almost" gets the point. Blaming Rome would probably not be a good idea.

Generally, the audience of the Synoptics and Jn would not be Jews--there is the tradition that Mt is a "Jewish" gospel. Nevertheless, it would have to have been for Helenized Jews--particularly since it was written in Greek.

By today's standards, I find the works anti-semitic--singling out a people as a target for derision and a scape-goat. Compared to historical instances, it is rather mild. Nevertheless, I do not think one should ignore it.

Why does it matter now? This thread demonstrates it. The Synoptics and Jn are not Homer . . . people still believe in the texts as "history" and, unfortunately, act on it. It may be illegitimate to use them as an excuse to harm someone--one could even argue that none of the authors would have agreed with that--however, it does serve as an excuse. I am afraid that those who do do not have to twist the text that far to denegrate their target.

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Old 08-16-2003, 10:21 PM   #47
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Default Re: Why would Christians care who "killed" Christ?

Originally posted by Zucco

My question is, why would Christians care who killed Christ? According to their entire believe system, he was SUPPOSED to die. Doesn't the Bible say that Christ "died for our sins"? If the Jews or the Romans or whoever had not crucified him, wouldn't the entire New Testament be null and void?

It seems to me that Christians would laud the responsible party. How do they justify anger?
Well they shouldn't and, in fact, if I was a Jew I would be immensely proud to have been responsible for the death of Jesus because that is the only way that liberation can be found for each and every Jew.

Where Christians go wrong is to claim that Jesus died for their sins because Jesus died for the sins of his own world and told us to do the same for the sins of our world.

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