Freethought & Rationalism Archive

xeren · 11-01-2002, 01:27 PM

O-KAY,

Zentraedi we're not getting anywhere. Everyone keeps trying to explain to you how it is possible that morals can be had without religion, that we can simply get them from soceity and evolution. But you won't have it, and that's fine, if you're not convinced, you're not convinced.

So let's try it THIS way: You say that our non-religious morals are simply copies of or patterned after(or whatever, i don't want to argue over semantics) christianity's morals. But to show that our "atheistic" morals are patterned after religious morals, you must show that those Christian morals came from God, and not society/evolution. because...

If Christianty got it's basic set of morals from society and evolution, then our "atheistic" morals, which seem to be copied from Christian morals are indeed morals from society and evolution.

So, please show us that those morals came from god.

It seems like a big task, so I'll help you get started:

God disapproves of rape because...

[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: xeren ]

Zentraedi · 11-08-2002, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eudaimonist:


There are too many mays in your argument. If you think that an atheistic culture cannot produce a healthy society, please make an argument. (State the height of the hurdle of healthiness too, so we know you aren't talking about some Utopia.)

Simply saying that an atheistic culture might not produce a healthy society isn't saying much. It might produce a better society, or one at least as good. We won't know for sure until we try, now will we? Why should we think that the project would be doomed to failure?

[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonist ]

I say may, because I can't tell you first hand what would happen if religions never existed. Where do you get your ideas of right from wrong before religions came to be? I don't see any societies better suited to my beliefs in right from wrong than christianity. Is this because I was brought up in a society dominated by christians? If you don't believe in god(s), and were able to clean the slate, would you come up with ideas from some common place that all men find fair?

I don't think a constition is what we would come up with without an influence religions, cult etc. I think we would go back to the rules of nature. I think religion is unnatural. I don't want the rules of nature either though. If you don't know the rules of nature go watch a wildlife special.

Zentraedi · 11-08-2002, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawkingfan:


No we wouldn't. Ever hear of the Code of Hammurabi? May want to consult a history textbook. A functional society did not arise from the belief in God. Early in the years of evolution, morals evolved from the behavior exhibited by those who were the most successful at passing on their genes (i.e. reproducing). To keep it simple, if you behaved badly, your chances were not so good. Even though it did not completely prevent evil acts, it brought everyone together as a moral, functional society.

WE don't live by the codes of nature. WE came up with more socialable ones.

galiel · 11-09-2002, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zentraedi:
WE don't live by the codes of nature. WE came up with more socialable ones.

Zentraedi,

What is your actual point? You seem to be trying to tell all of us something about the right and wrong way to live. What is it, exactly?

Zentraedi · 11-13-2002, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by galiel:


Zentraedi,

What is your actual point? You seem to be trying to tell all of us something about the right and wrong way to live. What is it, exactly?

I am one who is pretty sure god does not exist. I live in the United States, where christianity found most of our ideas of right and wrong. Just look at the laws. Look at the systems we go by. I have noticed that everything I feel is right goes along the lines of everyone christian. I look at the way of things in other cultures and find some very bizarre. There is not a conscientious for anything. What should an atheist base their morals off?

Zentraedi · 11-13-2002, 12:38 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hawkingfan:
[QB]

Yes, speaking for myself as an atheist, when I lie on my deathbed, I will be satisfied with the life that I have led and the things that I have done. And be afraid of what? Dying? I will be content in knowing that all living things must die sometime. It is a natural, scientific process. It is the believer in the afterlife who must be afraid of were they will be going, not me, I'll be dead. Christians are the ones who use the Bible to deal with the things they fear, not atheists.

Zentraedi:Your not on your deathbed. You may be content with death, but fear will never be relinquished. I think more christians are worried about purpose to what they are doing or saying at this very moment rather than where they are going. Its fear of what they do or say not being meaningful.

Zentraedi:Is Atheism productive?

I have led a productive life so far, yes.

Zentraedi:I mean as a whole isolated by itself from others beliefs.

Zentraedi:My belief is that no man/woman can function without some sort reassurance from a foreign intelligence, be it imaginary or not.

I have yet to lose any of my "functions".

Zentraedi: Foreign I mean as anyone other than yourself.

Zentraedi:What does an atheist do when the reassurance is not present in a physical manner?

I don't know. Turn to reason? Logic? Get over it?

Zentraedi: How are you going to tell yourself everything is going to be ok, when you don't think your going to be. You may not put faith in god, but you DO put faith in other human beings. Many times in your life its no one but you, and faith is needed in someone other than yourself. Reason will get you no where when its telling you you've lost.

Jack the Bodiless · 11-13-2002, 12:49 AM

Religions have a habit of claiming ownership of moral principles.

For instance, condemnation of rape. It's common for Christians to say "if you don't believe in God, what's stopping you from going out and raping somebody?". However, the notion that rape is wrong is NOT Biblical. It's portrayed as wrong only in certain contexts: women are property, and rape is a violation of the property rights of the male guardian (husband, or father of a young woman). The rape of an adult single woman is OK. Fortunately most Christians don't believe this, but they don't seem to realize that they have assimilated a moral stance that is not of Christian origin.

The same may also be true of "justice" as a concept: the punishment of individuals for their crimes, after determination of guilt. It's a big part of modern Christianity (judgement after death and all that), but largely lacking in the Old Testament: where entire peoples (including innocents) are punished by God for the crimes of others.

Zentraedi · 11-13-2002, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by xeren:
O-KAY,

Zentraedi we're not getting anywhere. Everyone keeps trying to explain to you how it is possible that morals can be had without religion, that we can simply get them from soceity and evolution. But you won't have it, and that's fine, if you're not convinced, you're not convinced.

So let's try it THIS way: You say that our non-religious morals are simply copies of or patterned after(or whatever, i don't want to argue over semantics) christianity's morals. But to show that our "atheistic" morals are patterned after religious morals, you must show that those Christian morals came from God, and not society/evolution. because...

If Christianty got it's basic set of morals from society and evolution, then our "atheistic" morals, which seem to be copied from Christian morals are indeed morals from society and evolution.

So, please show us that those morals came from god.

It seems like a big task, so I'll help you get started:

God disapproves of rape because...

[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: xeren ]

I know morals can be had without any religions. We are not following them, because they don't exist.

Simply getting them from society doesn't seem so simple since the society is probably religious, considering most of your world is religious. Getting morals from nature would tell you to act as animals do. I don't like how the rest of the animals act.

Why would I have to prove a christians morals came from god, just to prove you patterned your morals from christians? If christian morals did not come from god, you can still pattern morals from christians.

Zentraedi · 11-13-2002, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless:
Religions have a habit of claiming ownership of moral principles.

For instance, condemnation of rape. It's common for Christians to say "if you don't believe in God, what's stopping you from going out and raping somebody?". However, the notion that rape is wrong is NOT Biblical. It's portrayed as wrong only in certain contexts: women are property, and rape is a violation of the property rights of the male guardian (husband, or father of a young woman). The rape of an adult single woman is OK. Fortunately most Christians don't believe this, but they don't seem to realize that they have assimilated a moral stance that is not of Christian origin.

The same may also be true of "justice" as a concept: the punishment of individuals for their crimes, after determination of guilt. It's a big part of modern Christianity (judgement after death and all that), but largely lacking in the Old Testament: where entire peoples (including innocents) are punished by God for the crimes of others.

Interesting that you point out rape. Rape is a common sight in animal behavior. What persuades you to think its wrong? Maybe not god, but maybe from a society that believes in a god that does not like rape.

[ November 13, 2002: Message edited by: Zentraedi ]

Zentraedi · 11-13-2002, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:
Can you give some evidence that the taboo against cannibalism is a religious taboo?

Further, cannibalism was/is part of some religious systems.

Yes thats why I said "For the religions I speak of."

[ November 13, 2002: Message edited by: Zentraedi ]

11-01-2002, 01:27 PM	#91
xeren Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Place Posts: 285	O-KAY, Zentraedi we're not getting anywhere. Everyone keeps trying to explain to you how it is possible that morals can be had without religion, that we can simply get them from soceity and evolution. But you won't have it, and that's fine, if you're not convinced, you're not convinced. So let's try it THIS way: You say that our non-religious morals are simply copies of or patterned after(or whatever, i don't want to argue over semantics) christianity's morals. But to show that our "atheistic" morals are patterned after religious morals, you must show that those Christian morals came from God, and not society/evolution. because... If Christianty got it's basic set of morals from society and evolution, then our "atheistic" morals, which seem to be copied from Christian morals are indeed morals from society and evolution. So, please show us that those morals came from god. It seems like a big task, so I'll help you get started: God disapproves of rape because... [ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: xeren ]</p>

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11-13-2002, 12:38 AM	#96
Zentraedi Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Anytown, USA Posts: 103	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hawkingfan: [QB] Yes, speaking for myself as an atheist, when I lie on my deathbed, I will be satisfied with the life that I have led and the things that I have done. And be afraid of what? Dying? I will be content in knowing that all living things must die sometime. It is a natural, scientific process. It is the believer in the afterlife who must be afraid of were they will be going, not me, I'll be dead. Christians are the ones who use the Bible to deal with the things they fear, not atheists. Zentraedi:Your not on your deathbed. You may be content with death, but fear will never be relinquished. I think more christians are worried about purpose to what they are doing or saying at this very moment rather than where they are going. Its fear of what they do or say not being meaningful. Zentraedi:Is Atheism productive? I have led a productive life so far, yes. Zentraedi:I mean as a whole isolated by itself from others beliefs. Zentraedi:My belief is that no man/woman can function without some sort reassurance from a foreign intelligence, be it imaginary or not. I have yet to lose any of my "functions". Zentraedi: Foreign I mean as anyone other than yourself. Zentraedi:What does an atheist do when the reassurance is not present in a physical manner? I don't know. Turn to reason? Logic? Get over it? Zentraedi: How are you going to tell yourself everything is going to be ok, when you don't think your going to be. You may not put faith in god, but you DO put faith in other human beings. Many times in your life its no one but you, and faith is needed in someone other than yourself. Reason will get you no where when its telling you you've lost.

11-13-2002, 12:49 AM	#97
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	Religions have a habit of claiming ownership of moral principles. For instance, condemnation of rape. It's common for Christians to say "if you don't believe in God, what's stopping you from going out and raping somebody?". However, the notion that rape is wrong is NOT Biblical. It's portrayed as wrong only in certain contexts: women are property, and rape is a violation of the property rights of the male guardian (husband, or father of a young woman). The rape of an adult single woman is OK. Fortunately most Christians don't believe this, but they don't seem to realize that they have assimilated a moral stance that is not of Christian origin. The same may also be true of "justice" as a concept: the punishment of individuals for their crimes, after determination of guilt. It's a big part of modern Christianity (judgement after death and all that), but largely lacking in the Old Testament: where entire peoples (including innocents) are punished by God for the crimes of others.

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