Freethought & Rationalism Archive

tr1st4n · 04-25-2002, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Nobody:
I'd say begging the question. Am I right? What do I win?

Joe Nobody

Beats me. I asked because I didn't know. You won my gratitude.

Koyaanisqatsi · 04-25-2002, 10:22 AM

Quote:

"the Bible is not to be read as a book of science"

Hmmmm...

I vaguely recall something Jesus said regarding this...now what was it?

Oh yeah!

Quote:

John 3:12: I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

Shot himself in the foot there

.

[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]

case · 04-27-2002, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pompous Bastard:
Congratulations, devnet, you've rescued this thread from the Humor forum.

devnet rescued it, but I still think this is a joke. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

sighhswolf · 04-27-2002, 04:45 PM

Where the hell is Cartman???????
He knows Jesus personally, lives in the same town.

B. H. Manners · 04-28-2002, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by devnet:


Actually I'm glad this argument is still being made, albeit in a more sophisticated fashion, that is, presuppositionalism.

Let us accept that the Bible is the Word of God because it says so. The fallacy of circulus in demonstrando will be repelled by the presuppositional apologist by saying that "we must have a yardstick, a measure for judging all things". It is with this rule that Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb of Ohr Somayach says, "it is incoherent to ask whether the Torah is relevant to you; rather, ask whether you are relevant to the Torah". And Cornelius Van Til, father of Christian presuppositionalism, exhorted to judge everything according to the Bible. And the Turkish Muslim apologist Harun Yahya has a tract calling to "evaluate everything from the point of view of the Qur'an". Because those books claim to be the Word of God, they are yardsticks of judgement and not judged things. Judging them would be like judging God himself.

So far the internal consistency of each particular presuppositionalist; however, externally they cancel each other out. The Bible says it is the word of God; all right, but so does the Qur'an. By what basis do you judge things according the Bible and not the Qur'an, although the latter makes just as strong a claim to be God's word as the former? If you say, "the Bible has evidence to back it up, not so the Qur'an", then you have already stepped out of presuppositionalism and started judging the Scripture!

Therefore, the yardstick for judgement must be something with more consensus than Scripture. The Bible may be the Word of God, and so may the Qur'an; however, we cannot presuppose any of them, because they make a mutually exclusive claim. We have to presuppose a consensus. As it happens, the universal consensus among human beings is that the natural universe is not a human product - that is, human beings did not fashion the natural world (stars, planets, rocks, trees, animals, including us). The question of "who created" is of no interest here. What is of interest is that, since the natural Universe is the only thing which all humans agree to presuppose as a non-human creation, we are to judge all scripture according to its agreement with natural fact. So that if Scripture mentions a solid dome above our heads (as the Bible does - the firmament), then it is disqualified from being the Word of God.

The Bible is the word of God because it says so. The Qur'an is the word of God because it says so. They are both human scriptures, with no supernatural inspiration whatsoever, because they tell untruths about natural facts. For example the firmament, the flat earth, geocentricity, and purposive creation ("Master Craftsman") instead of adaptive evolution ("Blind Watchmaker").

(This, by the way, is also an answer to Tercel about the issue of science and Christianity: no, they do not agree. The findings of science, since they are impartial and ignore "written revelation" find the truth and prove theistic religions to be lies. Science and theism are opposites and bitter enemies, and the victory of the one is the defeat of the other).

Excellent devnet, my hat is off to you!

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04-27-2002, 04:45 PM	#24
sighhswolf Regular Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Charlotte,NC USA Posts: 379	Where the hell is Cartman??????? He knows Jesus personally, lives in the same town.

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