Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kat_Somm_Faen · 02-03-2002, 02:08 AM

Heheee me gain

Anywho, as an atheist with cultural background in Eastern Orthodoxy i would have to disagree with the notion of Eastern Orthodoxy being a bunch of idoltors. Could you plese explain? I come from a culture dominated by Eastern Orthodoxy and would like your input as to why do you think so.

But to move on to what most Christins think is that you HAVE the answer and the Spirit ( whatever that may be ) is in you but you choose not to acknowledge it. It is more our refusal to "open our eyes" nd "listen". There are numerous examples of Christins and many other religions and sects using the same arguments when trying to convert.

"Only if you were open-minded and would listen to what I have to say."

HelenM · 02-03-2002, 03:00 AM

Is it obvious? Or is it not their fault?

Quote:

But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

2 Cor 4:3b-4

Whose fault is it if a person has been blinded?

And what about this one?

Quote:

And [Jesus] said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, "so that `Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And [their] sins be forgiven them.'"

Mark 4:11-12 (in which Jesus quotes Isaiah speaking the words of the LORD).

Obvious? Or not?

love
Helen

02-03-2002, 07:29 AM

What is obvious to me is that if god exists, he/she/it is a sadistic experimenter. Why else "create" human beings to be so fallible and then condemn the majority of them for this fallibility? I assume that god is interested in allowing a very limited "free will" to see if it throws up anything interesting (that's the experimental bit) and then enjoys seeing the suffering of those condemned to everlasting torment (that's the sadism bit).

Kvalhion · 02-03-2002, 09:56 AM

It was not always a hide and seek game, of course. Two thousand years ago it was quite easy to find God. Communities were much more isolated than they were now. Understanding of our world and the universe was very limiting, and many things could be attributed to God. Rain, thunder, the sun, life, death, disease, food, famine, poverty, prosperity, etc could all be attributed to God. The benefit of being isolated from other communities was that the contradictions to these things were not as apparent as they are now.

As science developed and questions about life, our world, the universe, etc were answered, God became more difficult to find. The earth was no longer flat and the center of the universe. Humans were no longer thought to be created "as is". And as technology gave the ability to communicate on a much larger scale between communities and societies, the glaring contradictions became more apparent.

If one person somewhere miraculously survives an accident or recovers from a fatal disease, hundreds of others do not. If one area experiences drought and famine, others do not. If one kidnapped child is found unharmed, others somewhere are not. If one society experiences success and prosperity, others are starving and poor.

Basically, for everything good that people would like to attribute to God, the equally opposite thing exists as well. Thus, God is much more difficult to find.

I can understand two thousand years ago that people were not ready to hear that they were not the center of existance in the universe. Religion told them a story on how to live, and gradually that story is reaching an end. As God is harder and harder to find, people still cling to this as if it were a feature of religion rather than a conclusion to be reached from the story of religion.

As our society continues to advance in science and technology, God will continue to be even more difficult to find. It is extremely likely that our discoveries will continue to be consistent in showing that the universe does not revolve around humans, and that humanity is not the exception to all life.

Of course, it remains to be seen whether or not there is enough time to learn from our progress and adjust our lives before we obliterate ourselves and our planet.

lpetrich · 02-03-2002, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kat_Somm_Faen:
<strong>
Anywho, as an atheist with cultural background in Eastern Orthodoxy i would have to disagree with the notion of Eastern Orthodoxy being a bunch of idoltors. Could you plese explain? ...
</strong>

The "idolatry" is all the imagery that features in Catholic and Eastern Orthodox practice. The more hardcore Protestants have often considered that idolatrous; many Fundamentalists continue to believe that.

Quote:

<strong>
(...)
"Only if you were open-minded and would listen to what I have to say."</strong>

However, the minds of such apologists snap shut as quickly as a mousetrap when anyone ever presents a rival creed to them.

lpetrich · 02-03-2002, 10:48 AM

An indicator of what Kvalhion is saying can be seen in the sort of miracles that the Catholic Church has been accepting as evidence of being worthy of sainthood.

In the Middle Ages, saints would work lots and lots of miracles, while the Vatican finds it hard to find miracles worked by present-day saint candidates -- and most of those miracles are recoveries from disease. So why are present-day saints such wimps compared to their medieval predecessors?

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02-03-2002, 02:08 AM	#11
Kat_Somm_Faen Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Boulder, Colorado Posts: 3,316	Heheee me gain Anywho, as an atheist with cultural background in Eastern Orthodoxy i would have to disagree with the notion of Eastern Orthodoxy being a bunch of idoltors. Could you plese explain? I come from a culture dominated by Eastern Orthodoxy and would like your input as to why do you think so. But to move on to what most Christins think is that you HAVE the answer and the Spirit ( whatever that may be ) is in you but you choose not to acknowledge it. It is more our refusal to "open our eyes" nd "listen". There are numerous examples of Christins and many other religions and sects using the same arguments when trying to convert. "Only if you were open-minded and would listen to what I have to say."

02-03-2002, 07:29 AM	#13
DMB Guest Posts: n/a	What is obvious to me is that if god exists, he/she/it is a sadistic experimenter. Why else "create" human beings to be so fallible and then condemn the majority of them for this fallibility? I assume that god is interested in allowing a very limited "free will" to see if it throws up anything interesting (that's the experimental bit) and then enjoys seeing the suffering of those condemned to everlasting torment (that's the sadism bit).

02-03-2002, 09:56 AM	#14
Kvalhion Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Southern CA Posts: 441	It was not always a hide and seek game, of course. Two thousand years ago it was quite easy to find God. Communities were much more isolated than they were now. Understanding of our world and the universe was very limiting, and many things could be attributed to God. Rain, thunder, the sun, life, death, disease, food, famine, poverty, prosperity, etc could all be attributed to God. The benefit of being isolated from other communities was that the contradictions to these things were not as apparent as they are now. As science developed and questions about life, our world, the universe, etc were answered, God became more difficult to find. The earth was no longer flat and the center of the universe. Humans were no longer thought to be created "as is". And as technology gave the ability to communicate on a much larger scale between communities and societies, the glaring contradictions became more apparent. If one person somewhere miraculously survives an accident or recovers from a fatal disease, hundreds of others do not. If one area experiences drought and famine, others do not. If one kidnapped child is found unharmed, others somewhere are not. If one society experiences success and prosperity, others are starving and poor. Basically, for everything good that people would like to attribute to God, the equally opposite thing exists as well. Thus, God is much more difficult to find. I can understand two thousand years ago that people were not ready to hear that they were not the center of existance in the universe. Religion told them a story on how to live, and gradually that story is reaching an end. As God is harder and harder to find, people still cling to this as if it were a feature of religion rather than a conclusion to be reached from the story of religion. As our society continues to advance in science and technology, God will continue to be even more difficult to find. It is extremely likely that our discoveries will continue to be consistent in showing that the universe does not revolve around humans, and that humanity is not the exception to all life. Of course, it remains to be seen whether or not there is enough time to learn from our progress and adjust our lives before we obliterate ourselves and our planet.

02-03-2002, 10:48 AM	#16
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	An indicator of what Kvalhion is saying can be seen in the sort of miracles that the Catholic Church has been accepting as evidence of being worthy of sainthood. In the Middle Ages, saints would work lots and lots of miracles, while the Vatican finds it hard to find miracles worked by present-day saint candidates -- and most of those miracles are recoveries from disease. So why are present-day saints such wimps compared to their medieval predecessors?

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