Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Evangelion · 06-29-2003, 01:26 PM

Looks good. It will be interesting to hear his views on the "Lucifer" story.

Meanwhile, I'd like to offer the following quote from Yearsley's The Real Source of Sin and the Meaning of 'Devil' and 'Satan' in Scripture (2001):

Everyman�s Talmud by A. Cohen has the following comment:

�The story of the fallen angels, which figures in the Apocalyptic literature, is not found in the Talmud or Midrash. In the writings of the rabbinic period the evil angels are nothing more than an invention to express the divine wrath, and their function is to carry out the decree when God has to punish men for their wickedness.�

And a little further on,

��Satan� is the personification of wickedness. A significant remark [from the Talmud] is: �Satan, the Jetzer Hara and the Angel of Death are all one.� (B.B.16a). It indicates that the prompting to evil is rather a force within the individual than an influence from without.

It also explains why God permits Satan to be active and does not destroy him. The reason is that, as will be explained, the Jetzer Hara is an essential constituent in human nature, without which the race would soon become extinct.�

Doctor X · 06-30-2003, 03:42 PM

Spaz:

Specialized books are expensive. You may be able to find the paperback for less, especially if used. Not to sing its praises too much, but it has a great bibliography, and it is very well written. I am reading a texts on images of gods and goddesses in ancient Israel and, while complete, it is a complete ZZZZzzzzzZZZzzzzz. . . .

Besides . . . you cannot bring the internet into your bathroom . . . or maybe you can. . . .

Evangelion:

Well, this first attempt "disappeared" with a computer crash . . . then I could not get on this forum. Here goes:

According to Forsyth:

Quote:

. . . the myth alluded to in Isaiah looks like a blending of the Ugaritic traditions with a story very much like the Phaethon myth; the three together look like variants, adapted to their several purposes, of one common rebel plot.
. . . . .
The ambitious thoughts of the rebel allude to some figure like the Ugaritic Athar, who also went up to the "reaches of Zaphon" to challenge the king (though Baal, not El, in the version we have), and the name of this mythological rebel, "Shining One, Son of Dawn," makes him an exact equivalent of the Greek Phaethon.

Sahar, in various Hebrew contexts, preserves some of its old mythological meaning as a feminine dawn goddess, . . . Her sone, Helel, may possibly be the sun itself, and indeed Sahar may mean the rising sun, . . or Helel may be an allusion to the planet Venus, as most modern commentators on the passage believe. Whether or not the composer of the Isaiah passage made this explicit identification, the Greek translators of the Septuagint certainly did, since their translation of Helel ben Sahar as Heosphoros ho proi anatellon clearly combines the astronomical identification with Hesiod?s Heosphoros, son of Heos, the dawn-bringer, Venus. The Greek was in turn rendered by the Latin vulgate as Lucifer, qui mane oriebaris, and the name has stuck to the rebel ever since.
. . . . .
. . . the redactor of this test, the man responsible for its inclusion in the Isaiah scroll, has no doubts about who this [Babylonian king.--Ed.] is. He introduces the poem with the following prose words addressed to the Israelites: "When Yahweh has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon."
. . . .
It is generally agreed that the poem we are discussing does not come from the genuine Isaiah of Jerusalem, the great eight-century prophet. . . . Second Isaiah's grand vision, appear to come from the hands of later members of the school who kept the Isaiah tradition alive, even on into the postexilic period. Probably our poem comes from some sixth-century hand who would have had an immediate interest in the downfall of Bablyon, but was then reworked and incorporated into the general section in which it now stands, the oracles against the nations.

--J.D.

Reference: Forsyth, Neil. The Old Enemy: Satan & the Combat Myth. Princeton: 1987, pp. 135-37.

Paul Baxter · 06-30-2003, 07:37 PM

For more info,

I know that historian Jeffrey Burton Russell (who was a classmate of my college advisor--the only reason I know this) has written several books on the "history" of Satan. Pretty interesting stuff. He also goes over how Satan has figured into interpretations of the problem of evil through the ages. The one volume summary book (the one I read) is called _The Prince of Darkness_. He also has a longer multi-volume set, if you are into this sort of thing.

mike_decock · 07-01-2003, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
[B]Besides . . . you cannot bring the internet into your bathroom . . . or maybe you can. . . .

Wireless network with a laptop

.

-Mike...

MortalWombat · 07-01-2003, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
. . . you cannot bring the internet into your bathroom . . .

But the converse has been shown to be true on many occasions.

Godless Dave · 07-01-2003, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Michael is an archangel who fights against Satan ( Lucifer) in Revelation.

Magus, what is your Biblical basis for calling Satan "Lucifer"?

Doctor X · 07-01-2003, 02:07 PM

What?

Are you suggesting that the internet may be used for . . . purient reasons?

Heavens to Betsy!

Overcome by the revelation, he collapses into his leather chair. . . .

--J.D.

Doctor X · 07-01-2003, 02:13 PM

Godless Dave:

I am new here, so apologies if you know this already and are asking a somewhat rhetorical question.

The identification of "Lucifer" with "the Horn'd One, the Angel of the Bottomless Pit, That which is Anathema" came from the translation in the Latin vulgate. I give credit to Forsythe that someone looking for a "fallen angel" in later mythmaking looked here and said, "ah ha!" Similarly, the story in Genesis of the sons of the gods who came down to earth and mated with "da wimmenfolk" to create a race of heros became a "aha! FALLEN ANGELS!!"

You are correct, however, that in the Biblical texts, as far as I know, the name "Lucifer" is not specifically used for the adversary. Indeed, the "Lucifer" is not used for him either in the original passage!

--J.D.

my dog earl · 07-02-2003, 03:25 AM

Magus55 is being predictably quiet on this one.

06-29-2003, 01:26 PM	#21
Evangelion Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Walsall, UK Posts: 1,490	Looks good. It will be interesting to hear his views on the "Lucifer" story. Meanwhile, I'd like to offer the following quote from Yearsley's The Real Source of Sin and the Meaning of 'Devil' and 'Satan' in Scripture (2001): Everyman�s Talmud by A. Cohen has the following comment: �The story of the fallen angels, which figures in the Apocalyptic literature, is not found in the Talmud or Midrash. In the writings of the rabbinic period the evil angels are nothing more than an invention to express the divine wrath, and their function is to carry out the decree when God has to punish men for their wickedness.� And a little further on, ��Satan� is the personification of wickedness. A significant remark [from the Talmud] is: �Satan, the Jetzer Hara and the Angel of Death are all one.� (B.B.16a). It indicates that the prompting to evil is rather a force within the individual than an influence from without. It also explains why God permits Satan to be active and does not destroy him. The reason is that, as will be explained, the Jetzer Hara is an essential constituent in human nature, without which the race would soon become extinct.�

07-01-2003, 02:13 PM	#28
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Yo!! Loey!!! Godless Dave: I am new here, so apologies if you know this already and are asking a somewhat rhetorical question. The identification of "Lucifer" with "the Horn'd One, the Angel of the Bottomless Pit, That which is Anathema" came from the translation in the Latin vulgate. I give credit to Forsythe that someone looking for a "fallen angel" in later mythmaking looked here and said, "ah ha!" Similarly, the story in Genesis of the sons of the gods who came down to earth and mated with "da wimmenfolk" to create a race of heros became a "aha! FALLEN ANGELS!!" You are correct, however, that in the Biblical texts, as far as I know, the name "Lucifer" is not specifically used for the adversary. Indeed, the "Lucifer" is not used for him either in the original passage! --J.D.

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06-30-2003, 07:37 PM	#23
Paul Baxter Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Mebane, NC Posts: 64	For more info, I know that historian Jeffrey Burton Russell (who was a classmate of my college advisor--the only reason I know this) has written several books on the "history" of Satan. Pretty interesting stuff. He also goes over how Satan has figured into interpretations of the problem of evil through the ages. The one volume summary book (the one I read) is called _The Prince of Darkness_. He also has a longer multi-volume set, if you are into this sort of thing.

07-01-2003, 02:07 PM	#27
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	What? Are you suggesting that the internet may be used for . . . purient reasons? Heavens to Betsy! Overcome by the revelation, he collapses into his leather chair. . . . --J.D.

07-02-2003, 03:25 AM	#29
my dog earl Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 149	Magus55 is being predictably quiet on this one.

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