Fr.Andrew

(dk): I don’t accept homosexuality as part of human nature, the word wasn’t coined until 1890s by Freud.
(Fr Andrew): I don't understand how your acceptance of it, or the date of Freud's having coined a word to describe it, bears on whether or not homosexuality is part of "human nature". Can you explain what difference any of that makes?
Homosexuality has been part of the human experience since man has kept records. I'm pretty much up on the history of homosexuality and of homophobia if you have any questions.

(dk): I submit male homosexuality is primitive violent and hierarchical in its norms, and exists most purely in prisons and military ranks where lower ranking males are bonded to their benefactor in exchange for protection, and dominant males form a rigid hierarchical structure ruled by brutality and violence.
(FR Andrew): You haven't thought this out very well, have you? You're the one who insists, "as near as you can tell", that "...gays are by and large well educated upper middle class city dwellers." Now you're saying that homosexuality "exists most purely" in a thuggish prison atmosphere.
Which is it? Or are you just frantically plugging holes?
And please---"exists most purely"--what does that mean?

(dk): If homosexuality is self evident, which is the case I think you’re making, then pedophilia is likewise self evident , the sexual object being justified by the attraction.
(Fr Andew): "Self-evident"? Do you know what that means? The existence of homosexuality requires no proof. It's here...trust me. So is pedophilia.
And what do you mean, "...the sexual object being justified by the attraction."

(Bill Snedden): Rape and pedophilia are absolutely irrelevant to a discussion about the morality of homosexuality as there is absolutely no necessary connection to homosexuality. Can we please, please try and stay on topic?
(dk): I find your statement rather judgmental. You’ve got to give a reason, and you haven’t.
(Fr Andrew): Nothing judgemental involved, dk...the truth of Bill's comment has been pretty well established. There is no connection between homosexuality and rape or pedophilia. As a matter of fact, (from the link), 98% of the boys in the study were molested by heterosexuals. Of that number, 75% were molested by heterosexual males KNOWN TO THE VICTIMS in an incestuous scenario.
and
99.5% of the girls in the study were molested by heterosexuals. Of that number, 80%
were molested by heterosexual males KNOWN TO THE VICTIMS in an incestuous
scenario.

To the moderators: The above was not posted out of desire to inject irrelevancies into the thread--just to correct misinformation.

Fr.Andrew

(Fr Andrew): Oh, come, now! I asked if responsible copulation/safe sex wouldn't involve the use of condoms--and you said it wouldn't if you didn't have one.
What possible difference would your possession of a condom make to the notion that responsible copulation/safe sex involves their use?

HelenM

Brutal people create brutal hierarchies. The situation you describe is not one where there is mutual consent between two equally powerful adults. Do you really think that if there had been no homosexual relations in such societies, they would not have been brutal? That the people who were been power-hungry and violent and had little regard for human life would have been different? I think that's unlikely.

Helen

dk

I don't understand. Two equally powerful adults are peers, and peers can't resolve a dispute without appealing to a higher authority (arbitrator). If one of the two adults yields they cease to be peers.

dk

Homosexuality is a Freudian concept based on egotism. As I understand it, one's sexual attraction towards an object (male or female) becomes self evident. An man's attracted to pre-pubescent chidren should also be self evident. Right/Wrong? and why/why not?

HelenM

That's not necessarily true. If it's a dispute over facts they can resolve it by going to a source of more information. If it's a personal dispute one or both of them can decide to be flexible and compromise and the dispute will be over.

People resolve disputes this way all the time...

And compromising doesn't make you 'less' than the other person. If anything perhaps it reveals you to be 'greater' in that you can be more flexible than the other person. But basically I'd say it doesn't affect whether two people are peers, that one of them is willing to compromise.

Helen

HelenM

Not really. He simply named it - if you are right that he was the first one to use the term.

I thought you yourself referred to societies which predated Freud by many centuries, which engaged in homosexual behavior. In fact, it's mentioned in the Bible so evidently it was not invented by Freud.

Is other sexual behavior based on egotism and if not, then on what basis do you assert that homosexual behavior in particular is?

Helen

Dr Rick

Homosexuality is a Freudian concept based on egotism no more or less that heterosexuality is. Furthermore, sexual orientation and desire does not arise from the ego in Freud's schema. Finally, most of Freud's theories on the nature of human sexuality, from penis envy to rape fantasies, have been refuted and are now known not to be accurate.

If that person is healthy, yes; but some people repress their sexuality to the point that it isn't evident to them. For many homophobes, their latent homosexuality is not self-evident.

Same as above, but perhaps less so. Pedophiles typically are lacking in impulse control.

So what's your point?

dk

dk: Homosexuality is a Freudian concept based on egotism.
Dr Rick: Homosexuality is a Freudian concept based on egotism no more or less that heterosexuality is. Furthermore, sexual orientation and desire does not arise from the ego in Freud's schema. Finally, most of Freud's theories on the nature of human sexuality, from penis envy to rape fantasies, have been refuted and are now known not to be accurate.
dk: Ok, so what’s that leave us.

dk: As I understand it, one's sexual attraction towards an object (male or female) becomes self evident.
Dr Rick: If that person is healthy, yes; but some people repress their sexuality to the point that it isn't evident to them. For many homophobes, their latent homosexuality is not self-evident.
dk: Sure sound’s Freudian.

dk: A man's attracted to pre-pubescent children should also be self evident. Right/Wrong? and why/why not?
Dr Rick: Same as above, but perhaps less so. Pedophiles typically are lacking in impulse control.
dk: Wow! impulse control! What does pedophilia have to do with impulse control? Wouldn’t that be repressive?

Dr Rick: So what's your point?
dk: Looking for an ethical form.

dk

dk: I don't understand. Two equally powerful adults are peers, and peers can't resolve a dispute without appealing to a higher authority (arbitrator). If one of the two adults yields they cease to be peers.
HelenM: That's not necessarily true. If it's a dispute over facts they can resolve it by going to a source of more information. If it's a personal dispute one or both of them can decide to be flexible and compromise and the dispute will be over.
dk: I’ll take that as a tacit agreement.

HelenM: People resolve disputes this way all the time...
And compromising doesn't make you 'less' than the other person. If anything perhaps it reveals you to be 'greater' in that you can be more flexible than the other person. But basically I'd say it doesn't affect whether two people are peers, that one of them is willing to compromise.
dk: I agree, and when one compromises the other becomes dominant. In fact the only way two peers can remain equals is to avoid disputes with some reasonable division of labor. Alas we regress into traditional sex role models. Many activities are suited to peers, but directed activity (work) tends to form hierarchical patterns. Some men are more passive than others, and the hazing rituals our military academies and fraternities practice have their roots in the homosexual initiations rights of Ancient Greek armies. My point stands. Prisons are far more brutal. It is hard to ignore without intentionally shutting ones eyes to obvious. Recently we’ve seen a pattern of rape at the Air Force Academy, and in Illinois high schools adults encouraging women brutality in a true sporting tradition. I think I’ve made my point. Still women pedophiles and rapists are rare.