Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Blinn · 05-23-2002, 11:25 AM

Quote:

The recurrent laryngeal nerve, rather than taking a direct route from the spine, instead passes down the neck, round the posterior side of the aorta, then back up again to the larynx. Which in the case of the giraffe, implies a creator so set on the mammalian Blauplan that an extra 10 to 15 feet of nerve is needed.

Interesting how it got there. In fish, the vagus nerve sends direct branches from the brain to between each gill arch. The embryonic sixth aortic arch is innervated by the recurrent laryngeal branch of the vagus nerve. In mammals, the left 4th aortic arch forms part of the adult arch of the aorta and the 6th set of arches forms the pulmonary arteries. So the recurrent laryngeal nerve was "dragged" into the mediastinum during the descent of the heart into the chest.

Valentine Pontifex · 05-23-2002, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oolon Colluphid:


I can�t find a pic for giraffes, mostly the refs are to humans. Here�s a description of what it does: <a href="http://www.bcm.tmc.edu/oto/studs/anat/larynx.html" target="_blank">http://www.bcm.tmc.edu/oto/studs/anat/larynx.html</a>

I used to have a pic of it in an actual neck/chest dissection, but can�t find it now

But between them, these three make it fairly clear:

(Annotation bottom right here):

This is a nice figure. What someone can do with this is use a graphics program and put in some color to highlight the course of the nerve in the above image.

Quote:

[...]
It also occurs to me that, since this �design� is in the blueprint of all mammals, it means that the designer used this same oddity repeatedly, in however many �kinds� of mammals there are. Cats have the same perverse design as dogs, giraffes, whales, mice, civets, bats, elephants, horses, pigs, apes, and the alleged pinnacle of his efforts, humans... all of which were separate design efforts...

Might I suggest that someone who is knowledgable about anatomy consider preparing some figures and writing this up. Then go to the talk.origins newsgroup and propose it as a supplement to the Jury-Rigged Design FAQ. It would also be useful for dealing with issues of whether embryos are evidence for evolution, etc.

Quote:

Zetek wrote:

Interesting how it got there. In fish, the vagus nerve sends direct branches from the brain to between each gill arch. The embryonic sixth aortic arch is innervated by the recurrent laryngeal branch of the vagus nerve. In mammals, the left 4th aortic arch forms part of the adult arch of the aorta and the 6th set of arches forms the pulmonary arteries. So the recurrent laryngeal nerve was "dragged" into the mediastinum during the descent of the heart into the chest.

This is an important point. Not only does the design make no sense from a design POV, but it does make perfect sense once one considers what ancestor looked like. The design made sense for a fish. (I suppose "bauplan" should be used instead of "design" but sometimes one can make the point beter with a simpler word even if the word has teleological meaning that is unintended in this context.)

I would consider doing this myself, but my knowledge on anatomy is just not strong enough to do it right.

I am sure that someone with a strong background in anatomy could with a few evenings work make a killer file on this issue. And the gravy is that it can be shared with many and not just with tiny number of people who happen to read any particular forum post.

ishalon · 06-19-2002, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LordValentine:
[QB]
Might I suggest that someone who is knowledgable about anatomy consider preparing some figures and writing this up. Then go to the talk.origins newsgroup and propose it as a supplement to the Jury-Rigged Design FAQ. It would also be useful for dealing with issues of whether embryos are evidence for evolution, etc.[QB]

all i can do is the graphics

(pity the link is dead)

Oolon Colluphid · 06-20-2002, 12:11 AM

The criterion 'someone who is knowledgable about anatomy' rules me out. Sure, I can look it all up, but I'm no anatomist. Needs a doctor, perhaps (rbochnermd?) I'll give it a go eventually, but meanwhile...

Oolon

Oolon Colluphid · 07-15-2002, 12:22 AM

Bumped for GeoTheo�s attention.

Theo, I�m keen to hear your thoughts on these. I wonder what sort of creator you think did the creating.

Oolon

NialScorva · 07-15-2002, 12:45 AM

Oolan, mind if I snag these for an argument? What's the proper way to handle proper credit on psuedonymous forum postings? Link back to the thread?

Oolon Colluphid · 08-14-2002, 03:10 AM

Bumped for Vanderzyden's attention.

Oolon

Oolon Colluphid · 08-14-2002, 03:26 AM

... and I need to add: toenails on manatee flippers. Whassatallaboutthen??

Oolon

Boro Nut · 08-14-2002, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oolon Colluphid:
... and the pelvis and hind limb bone remnants of whales.

I feel you have somewhat spoiled your otherwise excellent post by injudiciously using a photo of what is clearly a toucan.

Boro Nut

[ August 14, 2002: Message edited by: Boro Nut ]

Oolon Colluphid · 08-14-2002, 04:50 AM

<snort-chuckle>

That's another Guinness I owe you Boro.

Oolon

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06-20-2002, 12:11 AM	#34
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	The criterion 'someone who is knowledgable about anatomy' rules me out. Sure, I can look it all up, but I'm no anatomist. Needs a doctor, perhaps (rbochnermd?) I'll give it a go eventually, but meanwhile... Oolon

07-15-2002, 12:22 AM	#35
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	Bumped for GeoTheo�s attention. Theo, I�m keen to hear your thoughts on these. I wonder what sort of creator you think did the creating. Oolon

07-15-2002, 12:45 AM	#36
NialScorva Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Median strip of DC beltway Posts: 1,888	Oolan, mind if I snag these for an argument? What's the proper way to handle proper credit on psuedonymous forum postings? Link back to the thread?

08-14-2002, 03:10 AM	#37
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	Bumped for Vanderzyden's attention. Oolon

08-14-2002, 03:26 AM	#38
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	... and I need to add: toenails on manatee flippers. Whassatallaboutthen?? Oolon

08-14-2002, 04:50 AM	#40
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	<snort-chuckle> That's another Guinness I owe you Boro. Oolon

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