fatherphil

actually i was not making reference to that often misused passage. i was speaking only within the context of your scenario.

why is there suffering in the world? it seems the existence of this question is not dependent on the existence of God. in reality we all are faced with the same choices when struck by tragedy. either press on or give up. the cosmic reason for our suffering really has little to do with the the fact that our lives are controlled by our need to choose between these two actions.

mike_decock

Would you agree that believing Hell is a place of eternal torment is a difficult position to maintain? I couldn't maintain that belief without concluding that God is a malicious.

To me, that implies that this life is more important than the afterlife. I means that getting to Heaven is less important than enjoying life on earth.

That's what I was forced to conclude. I just don't have that kind of faith.

-Mike...

mike_decock

You're right and I apologize. Painting any group of people with a broad brush is always a mistake. I really wasn't trying to harp on anyone, I just wanted to get the opinions of a few Christians regarding a concept I could never resolve to my satisfaction. Naturally, my understanding of Christian beliefs will be heavily influenced by the form of Christianity I was taught from childhood.

Understood. Even when I held fundy beliefs, I hated being pigeonholed with the militant fundies, too . Unfortunately, they are the most vocal group and make a bad reputation for the many kind and tolerant Christians (who probably constitute the majority of Christianity).

-Mike...

mike_decock

I wasn't trying to imply that you made that reference. I was just drawing a parallel to an often voiced concept I understood well.

If God is the creator, then everything in our existence, including suffering and questioning, are ultimately caused by God.

My position is still that if I can avoid being the cause of suffering (not creating a child, for example) then I would choose to do so because I couldn't bear being the cause of suffering. It would break my heart.

-Mike...

Littledrummerboy

Michael, I do not think that God is malicious if he created a place of eternal torment. The Christian/Jewish God is a God of, among other things, justice. If you sin against him, then you must pay the price, the price he sets. Keeping that for a moment, we must also say that, according to Christian dogma, God defines goodness; goodness does not define God. What I mean here, is God is good regardless of what he does. Because he is goodness, he cannot do bad things. He can do things we are not allowed to do (i.e. Abraham sacrificing Isaac, or furthermore, the knowledge of good and evil, the whole reason Christians believe humans are in the plight they are in.) Remembering that, we can put the two together. Hell, being the Penance of God's justice, is not malicious because God cannot be, by his very nature malicious. A malicious act is one of intended harm, I would hesitate to call a judge malicious for sending a guilty man to jail, death row etc. Onto your other point, I don't know whether or not this life is more important than the afterlife, again, because God has foreknowledge, creating people he knows will turn away from him, you would think that there is a heavy emphasis on this life. However, Christian scripture and tradition (Judahism) have taught that we live this life in preperation for the next, so I would tend to lean on the importance on the next life. As of your last point, it is hard to accept, and will be much harder once me and my fiance (to be married next summer) conceive (hopefully soon thereafter) but there is nothing easy about faith. Thanks

Stephen :notworthy

HelenM

I can understand what you mean, but, realistically - do you never do anything ever that hurts anyone else? Do you never get angry with people and say things intended to hurt them? etc

By the way, I didn't comment on the opening post question because I don't like to ponder impossible hypotheticals like that. No offense intended. It's just that I have more than enough to think about, dealing with things that could conceivably (no pun intended ) happen.

Helen

mike_decock

How can it be called justice if infinite punishment is given for a finite offense? If your child, in a moment of rebellion disobeyed you, would it be justified to spank the child for the next 75 years? The doctrine of eternal torment implies that, not only is it justified, it is insufficient punishment.

But God is the judge as well as the creator of that guilty man. He knows the man will be guilty, decides to create that man, and judges that man who would never have existed had God not created him in the first place.

If I knew I would that I would cause torment to my child yet conceived that child anyway, it would be malicious.

I wish you the best with your marriage and your future family.

I guess I just don't understand faith because it's something I simply do not have. For more than a decade I tried to convince myself that my beliefs were true, but failed to do so when I finally overcame my fear and did some deep introspection.

-Mike...

mike_decock

If it is within my abilities to avoid causing pain, I avoid it. I'm merely human and I am fallible.

Well, the hypothetical isn't terribly far-fetched, IMO. In my pondering over the suffering in the world, it places me "in God's shoes", so to speak. Not to imply that I could fill those shoes, but I could never envision myself creating a world or single person knowing that people would suffer as a result of my act of creating them.

-Mike...

fatherphil

regarless of the existence of life after death, any child brought into this world will suffer. no parent can prevent this.

are you going to not procreate due to this fact?

if so, consider adopting a child in an effort to ease some of their suffering. truly a noble aspiration

HelenM

But don't you ever want to hurt people back who've hurt you? Aren't you ever deliberately mean? Or does your comment about being fallible mean that ideally you never intentionally hurt people but realistically you do, sometimes.

I consider that far-fetched

Hence the appeal of theology which says that each human has a choice, over 'predestination/election' theology. But even the choice-theology has the problem of foreknowledge as you rightly pointed out.

I'm fairly sure I don't have an answer for you that will resolve it. I think it takes a certain amount of faith to believe that in the end the God of the Bible's ways will be seen to be good, pleasing and perfect.

Helen