Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RufusAtticus · 01-30-2003, 11:38 AM

Quote:

The legal complaint began with Texas Tech student Micah Spradling, who withdrew from Dini's class and the university in the fall and enrolled at Lubbock Christian University after learning about Dini's policy.

I think this is a load of bunk on the student's part. Earlier reports discussed how the student left Texas Tech and tried to enroll in LCU. He wasn't allowed to enroll at LCU until after he showed them Dini's webpage. I think that he used this as an excuse to late enroll in LCU. I suspect that he left Texas Tech because his biology class covered evolution in good detail. And the stuff about the recomendation was pure BS.

MrDarwin · 01-30-2003, 12:36 PM

I just hope the professor, his lawyer, his school, and the media stress that he's not discriminating on the basis of religious beliefs, he's discriminating on the basis of scientific beliefs--and as a science professor, that's something he should be entirely entitled to do. Would a physics professor be expected to write a letter of recommendation for a student who denies the existence of gravity?

Psycho Economist · 01-30-2003, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wyz_sub10
This is something that could get you into a lot of trouble. I know that here, in terms of references, you cannot give a bad reference other than to describe the basics of performance.

The prof would be best off doing exactly what he did - informing the student that he could not honestly give him a reference.

Having just gone through getting references for grad school applications, I'm familiar with this... hence the first paragraph. I just figured someone ought to take this kid's side... oh... wait...

livius drusus · 01-30-2003, 12:58 PM

Here's an excellent thread about this from a few months ago.

RufusAtticus · 01-30-2003, 01:50 PM

Professor rigid on the cause of disease

Tommy Totone was OK with learning that germs cause disease in college, but his family drew the line when his belief in the theory became a prerequisite for continuing his education.

Jim Totone said his son left Lubbock State this semester and enrolled in Lubbock College for Jesus after encountering the policy of one associate professor in biological sciences.

Professor James Buffet's Web site states that a student must "truthfully and forth rightly" believe that germs cause disease to receive a letter of recommendation from him.

"How can someone who does not accept the most important theory in medicine expect to properly practice medicine?" Buffet's site reads.

Buffet says on the site that it is easy to imagine how physicians who ignore or neglect the "germs cause disease can make bad clinical decisions." . . .

Jim Totone, who owns The Brace Place, said his son wanted to follow in his footsteps and needed a letter from a biology professor to apply for a program at Southwestern University's medical school.

Totone is not the only medical professional in Lubbock shocked by Buffet's policy. Doctors Pat Boone and Marvin Gaye said they learned that germs cause disease in college but were never forced to believe it.

"I learned what they taught," Boone said. "I had to. I wanted to make good grades, but it didn't change my basic beliefs."

Gaye said his primary problem is Buffet "trying to force someone to pledge allegiance to his way of thinking." . . .

Buffet is in a position of authority and "can injure someone's career," and the criteria is the "most prejudice thing I have ever read," Gaye said.

"It is appalling," he said.

Both doctors said their beliefs that demonic possession cause disease have never negatively affected their practices, and Gaye said he is a more compassionate doctor because of his beliefs.

"I do not believe the germs have anything to do with the ability to make clinical decisions � pro or con," Gaye said.

Academic freedom should be extended to students, Boone said.

Buffet's site states that an individual who denies the evidence commits malpractice in the method of science because "good scientists would never throw out data that do not conform to their expectations or beliefs."

People throw out information be cause "it seems to contradict his/her cherished beliefs," Buffet's site reads. A physician who ignores data cannot remain a physician for long, it states.

Buffet's site lists him as an exceptional faculty member at Lubbock State in 1995 and says he was named "Teacher of the Year" in 1998-99 by the Honors College at Lubbock State.

Boone said he does not see any evidence on Buffet's vita that he attended medical school or treated patients.

"Dr. Buffet is a nonmedical person trying to impose his ideas on medicine," Boone said. "There is little in common between teaching biology classes and treating sick people. ...

How dare someone who has never treated a sick person purport to impose his feelings about germs causing disease on someone who aspires to treat such people?"

On his Web site, Buffet questions how someone who does not believe that germs cause disease can ask to be recommended into a scientific profession by a professional scientist.

KC · 01-30-2003, 02:08 PM

At some point one has to wonder what exactly these dolts think the professor should write in a recommendation letter. Its almost like they think the kid is entitled to a letter of recommendation based on his abilty to make good grades. Letters of recommendation are supposed to enhance the information the medical school admissions office gets from the transcripts alone. If the kid did not impress the professor over and above just doing well in the course, then expecting a letter of recommendation is presumptuous at best.

Cheers,

KC

Principia · 01-30-2003, 02:14 PM

It sounds like to make a legal case here they'd have to argue that the professor's letter of recommendation is critical to the student's advancement or that there is some loss of equal opportunity based on some character trait that is out of the student's control. Let's take some of the other discrimination scenarios: race, sex, sexual orientation, etc. How does this one even compare in merit? I honestly don't see it.

Doubting Didymus · 01-30-2003, 03:44 PM

People get the wrong idea about this case for the same reason I originally did: they don't understand the process of recommendation. I didn't, and so I swallowed all the bullshit about 'statements of belief'.

EON_1 · 01-30-2003, 03:52 PM

Get ready (maybe) for the Scopes Monkey Trial, Part II:

Professor's refusal to recommend creationist students draws complaint, investigation

Quote:

DALLAS -- A biology professor who refuses to write letters of recommendation for his students if they don't believe in evolution is being accused of religious discrimination, and federal officials are investigating, the school said.

This ought to be interesting...

Strawberry · 01-30-2003, 04:30 PM

Doctors Pat Boone and Marvin Gaye? Is Hendrix a doctor too?

Seriously, my dad used to have to give reccomendations for students when he taught college and was always complaining about how giving a student a bad reccomendation could ultimately lead to legal action against the professor. I think this prof did the smart thing and just decided to abstain.

01-30-2003, 01:50 PM	#15
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	Repost from other thread Professor rigid on the cause of disease Tommy Totone was OK with learning that germs cause disease in college, but his family drew the line when his belief in the theory became a prerequisite for continuing his education. Jim Totone said his son left Lubbock State this semester and enrolled in Lubbock College for Jesus after encountering the policy of one associate professor in biological sciences. Professor James Buffet's Web site states that a student must "truthfully and forth rightly" believe that germs cause disease to receive a letter of recommendation from him. "How can someone who does not accept the most important theory in medicine expect to properly practice medicine?" Buffet's site reads. Buffet says on the site that it is easy to imagine how physicians who ignore or neglect the "germs cause disease can make bad clinical decisions." . . . Jim Totone, who owns The Brace Place, said his son wanted to follow in his footsteps and needed a letter from a biology professor to apply for a program at Southwestern University's medical school. Totone is not the only medical professional in Lubbock shocked by Buffet's policy. Doctors Pat Boone and Marvin Gaye said they learned that germs cause disease in college but were never forced to believe it. "I learned what they taught," Boone said. "I had to. I wanted to make good grades, but it didn't change my basic beliefs." Gaye said his primary problem is Buffet "trying to force someone to pledge allegiance to his way of thinking." . . . Buffet is in a position of authority and "can injure someone's career," and the criteria is the "most prejudice thing I have ever read," Gaye said. "It is appalling," he said. Both doctors said their beliefs that demonic possession cause disease have never negatively affected their practices, and Gaye said he is a more compassionate doctor because of his beliefs. "I do not believe the germs have anything to do with the ability to make clinical decisions � pro or con," Gaye said. Academic freedom should be extended to students, Boone said. Buffet's site states that an individual who denies the evidence commits malpractice in the method of science because "good scientists would never throw out data that do not conform to their expectations or beliefs." People throw out information be cause "it seems to contradict his/her cherished beliefs," Buffet's site reads. A physician who ignores data cannot remain a physician for long, it states. Buffet's site lists him as an exceptional faculty member at Lubbock State in 1995 and says he was named "Teacher of the Year" in 1998-99 by the Honors College at Lubbock State. Boone said he does not see any evidence on Buffet's vita that he attended medical school or treated patients. "Dr. Buffet is a nonmedical person trying to impose his ideas on medicine," Boone said. "There is little in common between teaching biology classes and treating sick people. ... How dare someone who has never treated a sick person purport to impose his feelings about germs causing disease on someone who aspires to treat such people?" On his Web site, Buffet questions how someone who does not believe that germs cause disease can ask to be recommended into a scientific profession by a professional scientist.

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01-30-2003, 12:36 PM	#12
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	I just hope the professor, his lawyer, his school, and the media stress that he's not discriminating on the basis of religious beliefs, he's discriminating on the basis of scientific beliefs--and as a science professor, that's something he should be entirely entitled to do. Would a physics professor be expected to write a letter of recommendation for a student who denies the existence of gravity?

01-30-2003, 12:58 PM	#14
livius drusus Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Selva Oscura Posts: 4,120	Here's an excellent thread about this from a few months ago.

01-30-2003, 02:08 PM	#16
KC Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Narcisco, RRR Posts: 527	At some point one has to wonder what exactly these dolts think the professor should write in a recommendation letter. Its almost like they think the kid is entitled to a letter of recommendation based on his abilty to make good grades. Letters of recommendation are supposed to enhance the information the medical school admissions office gets from the transcripts alone. If the kid did not impress the professor over and above just doing well in the course, then expecting a letter of recommendation is presumptuous at best. Cheers, KC

01-30-2003, 02:14 PM	#17
Principia Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: anywhere Posts: 1,976	It sounds like to make a legal case here they'd have to argue that the professor's letter of recommendation is critical to the student's advancement or that there is some loss of equal opportunity based on some character trait that is out of the student's control. Let's take some of the other discrimination scenarios: race, sex, sexual orientation, etc. How does this one even compare in merit? I honestly don't see it.

01-30-2003, 03:44 PM	#18
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	People get the wrong idea about this case for the same reason I originally did: they don't understand the process of recommendation. I didn't, and so I swallowed all the bullshit about 'statements of belief'.

01-30-2003, 04:30 PM	#20
Strawberry Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Lancaster, PA/Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 627	Doctors Pat Boone and Marvin Gaye? Is Hendrix a doctor too? Seriously, my dad used to have to give reccomendations for students when he taught college and was always complaining about how giving a student a bad reccomendation could ultimately lead to legal action against the professor. I think this prof did the smart thing and just decided to abstain.

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