Buffman

Kassiana

Though I have not read this book, the description better explains my interests in religious faith beliefs (supernatural belief systems).


http://www.secweb.org/bookstore/book...asp?BookID=688

(Extract)
Book Description
“The Biology of Belief�? examines how our less than perfectly adapted brains cope with today’s world. Among the things considered are how our brain biology biases our perceptions, organizes ignorance into belief systems, predisposes us to believe in supernatural spirits, and permits others to manipulate our beliefs. The human brain evolved over millions of years to cope with survival and reproduction in the rudimentary world of our primitive ancestors. Inasmuch as our brain biology formed to cope with this ancient world, it should be no surprise that it has a few problems in dealing with the complexities of modern life.

The process by which we come to believe something new involves a labyrinth of thought-influencing biological and other factors. In attempting to understand this labyrinth and its effect on how we acquire beliefs, this work addresses a number of considerations. The profound effect brain evolution has had on our way of perceiving the world is one example. Other elements include brain module interactions, neurotransmitters, inborn biological predispositions, and the interdependence of belief and perception. Together with other factors, they collectively comprise the biology of belief. How our beliefs come to define our realities is revealed through an exploration of the processes by which beliefs are created, changed, transmitted, and manipulated. The text challenges readers to consider whether biological and belief mechanisms resistant to change will permit long-held cultural beliefs to adapt rapidly enough to address the new realities of our changing world.
(End extract)

Roren

Isn’t this as simple as asking, “Can you think of question that is hard to answer?�? Everyone has answers to everything. Sometimes it’s “I don’t know�?. That’s an 'easy' answer. This is less a thought provoking question and more of a question of the intelligence of atheist’s and their ability to think on their feet.

“What would God have to do to make you believe and/or follow Him?�?
“If the purpose of life was happiness, and I’ve found it in my religion, would you still think I’m wrong?�?

WCH

To make me follow him? Several things.

First, he'd need to manifest himself in a way of which I would have no doubt. Could be a voice in my head, a vision, appearing to me in the flesh, writing in the clouds... anything. Just as long as I knew for sure that it was really him and not just my mind playing tricks on me.

Second, he'd have some explaining to do. If he is the God of the Bible, then he'd need to explain why he sanctions genocide, rape, child-murder and animal cruelty, to name a few things, all throughout Torah. If he isn't, then I would want to know where I can go to learn things about him.

As for whether you're still wrong, I'd say that, yes, you're wrong in the sense that you're deluded. However, ignorance is bliss when you get right down to it. It has to be more than just that it makes "you" happy, though... is the moral system your religion has created for you just or harmful? For example, Bible is very strongly anti-women, anti-gay, racist, cruel towards animals, etc. Do you apply these aspects of it to your life? If you don't, and instead treat everyone as equals, then I have no problem with your religion. Enjoy the lie. If you do, then your religion has to go.

Kassiana

Might I ask you to consider how it came to be that you do not, presently, fear death and the unknown? Were you always of that belief?
--To my knowledge, I have never feared death. Now, I do have some fears about the MANNER or TIMING of my death, but death itself holds no fear for me. I believe there is no malevolent afterlife; moreover, I believe even if there's no afterlife, I had a good life so I have no regrets. Why should I fear the mere fact of no longer being alive? I've met many other people who hold to my same viewpoint, that death itself holds no fear for them but that they don't want to miss out on future events or don't want to die in a "bad" way.

Death happens. I'd like it if it didn't happen until at least fifty years down the road for me, and in a peaceful non-scary way, but no. I don't fear not being alive.

Buffman

Fair enough. However, how many times have you been exposed to an immediate, life-threatening, situation? Additionally, I still have to wonder if you understand what a survival drive is and how vital it is to the preservation of our species.

I overcame my "considered" fear of death through having been exposed to immediate death on far too many occasions and by an act of mental discipline/education.

Thanks for the very thoughtful, introspective and reasoned reply.

DaMan121

Heh, just browsing the forums.. ran into this thread:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=94028

Cant answer that, ofcourse quip seems to think its some kind of victory. :banghead:

Kassiana

I still have to wonder if you understand what a survival drive is and how vital it is to the preservation of our species.
--I have to wonder why you equate fear of death with survival drive. I don't fear death and yet I strive to continue to live. Unreasonable? I don't think so. I don't understand why you think fear of death is necessary for survival. I have a better reason for you. I enjoy life and would like to continue with it.

Buffman

(Kassiana: I think this is a wonderful topic because it has sent me scurrying to find better ways to explain my position on this very complex, ill-defined, and often contentious, issue.)

Obviously I DO think that your reason is subject to further analysis. That is why I expended so much effort to find URLs that were likely to provide you with the information necessary to understand the differences between your more philosophical position and my more scientific one.

Do you truly understand "why" you strive to continue to live? You say it is because you enjoy life. I have little doubt that you have come to believe that to be the case. However, whether you do or don't enjoy life has very little to do with the blueprint from which your body was constructed...or from its evolutionary heritage. Do we agree on that much?

Can you accept the fact that our bodies are designed to recognize the differences between "pain" and "no pain?" If you are willing to accept that statement, then why do you suppose we evolved that ability? Could it be to help prevent harm/injury to our body? If so, why do you suppose that we would be concerned about preventing injury to ourselves if we didn't naturally fear death? Some living things can simply regenerate a new body part if they injure or lose the original. Humans can not...at least not yet. Absent technology/science breakthroughs, loss is loss and dead is dead.

Why do we need to eat, drink and breath...other than because we enjoy doing so? Could it be that we must do these things in order to stay alive? I sincerely believe that to be the case. Why is it necessary to remove waste products from our bodies? Is it because failure to do so has taught us that our bodies can be placed in mortal jeopardy if we fail to heed the "calls of nature?" Didn't those mechanisms evolve to be almost completely self-regulating...and they probably would be if social conditioning had not entered the picture? (Ask any baby.) But if one is not fearful of losing their life, why would they care what happens to their body. Obviously the 9/11 murders didn't care what happened to theirs...or did they?

Does the thought of burning to death cause you any concern? If so, why? Now ask yourself why someone would dash into a burning building in order to save a specific person or thing. If they save a person, they are labeled as courageous. If they save a thing, they are normally labeled an idiot. Why the difference when the act is the same? They placed their body/life in jeopardy. But what if they sincerely believed that they had more than one life that was independent of a material body? Would those same acts result in the same labels? Were the 9/11 Muslims extraordinarily faithful and courageous...or totally, morally, bankrupt idiots and murderers.?

To this point, I have been attempting to look at your philosophical position about your belief that you have no fear of death simply because you enjoy life. I believe that your position is an outgrowth of conditioning, not biology. However, not every human being has received the manner of conditioning that you have. In your earlier post, you mentioned that you knew others who shared your view. So do I. The Kamikaze pilots of WW II, the 19 terrorists of 9/11 and every Palestinian who has voluntarily blown themselves, and all the unsuspecting innocents around them, to bits and pieces. They all found ways to control their fear of death...sometimes knowing how they did it and sometimes not.

I am not contending that humans can not "control" their fear of death. I am contending that all humans begin life with that fear. The majority of folks are provided with a workable means to control their fears by being taught that they have more than one life. That is what a belief in the supernatural provides in the form of religious faith beliefs. Some other folks learn not to fear death by applying informed, accurate, knowledge to the nature and consequences of injury befalling their one, and only, material body. In your case, you say, "Death happens. I'd like it if it didn't happen until at least fifty years down the road for me, and in a peaceful non-scary way, but no. I don't fear not being alive." And exactly what do you suppose it is that causes you to wish for what you do?

I believe that there is a great difference between the scientific understanding of life and death and that understanding when viewed solely through the filter of social/philosophical conditioning.

Here are two more URLs that could provide some additional, albeit less scientific and more subjective, insights into this issue.

http://www.onelife.com/evolve/brain.html#B

http://human-nature.com/nibbs/02/gintis.html

El_Gato

who begat God?
and if nobody did, why did it take billions of years to think up humans?
and wtf was he doing all that time?
and I wonder what Mary's midiclorian count was?

Bright Life

[mod hat]

It's "List a question atheists never seem to answer."


[/mod hat]

And don't start that midiclorian shit with me!!!

BL