Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magus55 · 08-14-2003, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth

Actually, it logically follows. The god you describe cannot logically have all those attributes.

And it's you that keeps describing the attributes of god, what he can, can't, may, or may not do. Talk about something that's opinion with "no basis of fact within reality".

Apparently God can logically have those attributes, since He does. I see no conflict logically with them. I guess maybe you are having a problem since you can't understand the things of God. You are spiritually discerned.

JerryM · 08-14-2003, 02:34 PM

For Magus55:

My point is that if God is sovereign, and yet allows evil to occur, then he must share responsibility for it. Doesn't silence imply assent? If I knew someone would commit a heinous crime, yet I did nothing about it, do I not also share responsibility, in a moral sense? I didn't commit the crime. I didn't force someone to commit the crime. But I had foreknowlege of it. And suppose I had the ability to prevent it. How does my silence not imply that I assented to the crime?

Magus55 · 08-14-2003, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
Again, only to you.

No, it should be obvious to anyone with a solid grip on reality.

I have a solid grip on reality thanks, and still have no problem, nor does 5+ billion of the rest of the population, but then again, since atheists think they are superior to all other humans on Earth, i'm not surprised.

Mageth · 08-14-2003, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by Magus55
Apparently God can logically have those attributes, since He does.

Wow, that makes a lot of sense.

I see no conflict logically with them.

Why am I not surprised?

I guess maybe you are having a problem since you can't understand the things of God.

And, apparently, you consider yourself the mouthpiece of God.

If God is as you describe, he could squash you like an ant tomorrow and cast you into hell, without batting an eye. By your argument, all you could do is say "Thank you, O wise and wonderful God!"

You are spiritually discerned.

And you are linguistically confused, apparently.

Magus55 · 08-14-2003, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JerryM
For Magus:

My point is that if God is sovereign, and yet allows evil to occur, then he must share responsibility for it. Doesn't silence imply assent? If I knew someone would commit a heinous crime, yet I did nothing about it, do I not also share responsibility, in a moral sense? I didn't commit the crime. I didn't force someone to commit the crime. But I had foreknowlege of it. And suppose I had the ability to prevent it. How does my silence not imply that I assented to the crime?

Again, it may apply to you, but it doesn't to God. For God to stop all evil in the world, the ability to obey and disobey disappears, and God doesn't want that. Humans are responsible for their own actions.

Mageth · 08-14-2003, 02:41 PM

I have a solid grip on reality thanks, and still have no problem, nor does 5+ billion of the rest of the population,

Do you seriously think that 5+ billion people agree with your assessment of God?

but then again, since atheists think they are superior to all other humans on Earth, i'm not surprised.

Well, since I (and many other atheists) don't think that, but IMO many (but not all) Christians do ("We're goin' to Heaven; you're goin' to Hell! Nya nya nya nya nya nya!", or even the more subtle "I guess maybe you are having a problem since you can't understand the things of God"), I'm a bit surprised at your surprise.

Biff the unclean · 08-14-2003, 02:45 PM

That may apply to humans, it doesn't apply to God.
You've already said that god can't be around sin (or was that kryptonite?) Now you claim that god sins but it isn't a sin when god does it. You are floundering.
What do you, as a human, have to preserve in a situation that would prevent you from helping out with something?
My safety.
God on the other hand, wants to preserve our freedom of choice.
No where in the bible does god ever give a rats ass about free will. By repeating this argument you make yourself appear to be an idiot.
Why do you seem to think God has to follow your laws?
They aren't my laws, I didn't write that catechism. They are god's own laws and if he does not abide by them he is by definition sinful.
You are NOT ABOVE God, so stop acting like you make the rules.
Please stop whining, it's unbecoming.
If God doesn't want to help in a situation, He by absolutely no authority but His own, is required to do so, and no that doesn't make Him evil, it makes Him sovereign. You can't keep bringing God to your level, and expect Him to fit into the box you designed for Him. God is above and beyond any ideal or standard you can ever imagine.
The reason that god doesn't do anything is not because he doesn't want to. It's because he doesn't exist. He CAN'T do anything, he isn't real.

sophie · 08-14-2003, 02:47 PM

Quote:

. . . can't keep bringing God to your level, and expect Him to fit into the box you designed for Him

Everytime the Atheist closes the box, the Theist opens a bigger box. When the Atheist says 'no there's no such thing as such a big box', the Theist says 'but the box can still be bigger'.

Is there such a thing as a naturally occuring criminal? Because if omniGOD created evil then there should be baby crime and kiddie crime. Is there evidence of such criminal actions?

The worst dogs were dogs created by humans. Is there evidence to show dogs are naturally evil? Are monkeys naturally evil? The answer seems to be a resounding no.

Enlighten Me · 08-14-2003, 02:52 PM

If Christians "turn their lives over to God" and submit to "His" will, why doesn't the mythical "He" then "use" his robots to thwart the horrific evil that is regularly perpetrated against innocent children who lack the physical strength to exert THEIR free wills against their attackers?

Biff the unclean · 08-14-2003, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Humans are responsible for their own actions.

So you are saved by your own works?

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08-14-2003, 02:34 PM	#22
JerryM Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO. Posts: 1,100	For Magus55: My point is that if God is sovereign, and yet allows evil to occur, then he must share responsibility for it. Doesn't silence imply assent? If I knew someone would commit a heinous crime, yet I did nothing about it, do I not also share responsibility, in a moral sense? I didn't commit the crime. I didn't force someone to commit the crime. But I had foreknowlege of it. And suppose I had the ability to prevent it. How does my silence not imply that I assented to the crime?

08-14-2003, 02:37 PM	#24
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Originally posted by Magus55 Apparently God can logically have those attributes, since He does. Wow, that makes a lot of sense. I see no conflict logically with them. Why am I not surprised? I guess maybe you are having a problem since you can't understand the things of God. And, apparently, you consider yourself the mouthpiece of God. If God is as you describe, he could squash you like an ant tomorrow and cast you into hell, without batting an eye. By your argument, all you could do is say "Thank you, O wise and wonderful God!" You are spiritually discerned. And you are linguistically confused, apparently.

08-14-2003, 02:41 PM	#26
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I have a solid grip on reality thanks, and still have no problem, nor does 5+ billion of the rest of the population, Do you seriously think that 5+ billion people agree with your assessment of God? but then again, since atheists think they are superior to all other humans on Earth, i'm not surprised. Well, since I (and many other atheists) don't think that, but IMO many (but not all) Christians do ("We're goin' to Heaven; you're goin' to Hell! Nya nya nya nya nya nya!", or even the more subtle "I guess maybe you are having a problem since you can't understand the things of God"), I'm a bit surprised at your surprise.

08-14-2003, 02:45 PM	#27
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	That may apply to humans, it doesn't apply to God. You've already said that god can't be around sin (or was that kryptonite?) Now you claim that god sins but it isn't a sin when god does it. You are floundering. What do you, as a human, have to preserve in a situation that would prevent you from helping out with something? My safety. God on the other hand, wants to preserve our freedom of choice. No where in the bible does god ever give a rats ass about free will. By repeating this argument you make yourself appear to be an idiot. Why do you seem to think God has to follow your laws? They aren't my laws, I didn't write that catechism. They are god's own laws and if he does not abide by them he is by definition sinful. You are NOT ABOVE God, so stop acting like you make the rules. Please stop whining, it's unbecoming. If God doesn't want to help in a situation, He by absolutely no authority but His own, is required to do so, and no that doesn't make Him evil, it makes Him sovereign. You can't keep bringing God to your level, and expect Him to fit into the box you designed for Him. God is above and beyond any ideal or standard you can ever imagine. The reason that god doesn't do anything is not because he doesn't want to. It's because he doesn't exist. He CAN'T do anything, he isn't real.

08-14-2003, 02:52 PM	#29
Enlighten Me Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Southern Ca. Posts: 1,109	If Christians "turn their lives over to God" and submit to "His" will, why doesn't the mythical "He" then "use" his robots to thwart the horrific evil that is regularly perpetrated against innocent children who lack the physical strength to exert THEIR free wills against their attackers?

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