Freethought & Rationalism Archive

beyelzu · 02-03-2003, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gurdur
One day I will write a CGI script that can produce this stuff on demand; it will be very easy, since only 8 clich�ed phrases will be necessary.

i find that all of moon's posts boil down to communism good will happen, capitalism evil.

It is amazing how many words he uses to say it over and over agian though.

99Percent · 02-03-2003, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by echidna
Laughed so hard I shat. The onion kills me.

Me too, that Onion is incredibly right on!

Quote:

Despite the roommates' optimism, the system began to break down soon after its establishment. To settle disputes, the roommates held weekly meetings of the "Committee of Three."

"I brought up that I thought it was total bullshit that I'm, like, the only one who ever cooks around here, yet I have to do the dishes, too," said Foyle, unaware of just how much the apartment underscores the infeasibility of scientific socialism as outlined in Das Kapital. "So we decided that if I cook, someone else has to do the dishes. We were going to rotate bathroom-cleaning duty, but then Kirk kept skipping his week, so we had to give him the duty of taking out the garbage instead. But now he has a class on Tuesday nights, so we switched that with the mopping."

Quote:

The lack of funds and the resulting scarcity breeds not only discontent but also corruption. Although collectivism only works when all parties contribute to the fullest extent, Foyle hid the existence of a $245 paycheck from roommates so he would not have to pay his back rent, in essence refusing to participate in the forced voluntary taxation that is key to socialism.

Brilliant, just brilliant :notworthy

beyelzu · 02-03-2003, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Me and Me
Hal 900

Where has capitalism had success?

The U.S. is only powerful because it has to get rich off of cheap foreign labor, conquer other nations and set up puppet regimes that obey it's economic demands. The handful of capitalist nations that you can call a success were countries that had a foundation and had a head start by previous control of colonies or previous mass enslavement, or mass ethnic cleansing of territories they wanted. And some of the countries that you can call successful capitalism are countries that need to borrow money to sustain themselves.

Care to list some examples. I would particularly like to hear more about how US wealth comes from setting up puppet regimes. I would also like to know about all of the cheap foriegn labor that the US used in the 50's and 60's. Perhaps you would also like to explain how the fact that the labor is cheap overeas isnt the result of a really strong economy. I would also like an explanation on how Switzerland had a head start because of its many colonies. Also while your at it please explain how all of europe had slaves in the modern era. Who did the swiss ethnically cleanse anyway? Then show me a successful communist government that didnt kill millions of people. Also please explain how japan, which was severely fucked up in ww2 used ethnic cleansing, colonies, or slavery to grow into the second most powerful economy on earth.

I realy cant wait for you next post.

echidna · 02-03-2003, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by echidna
You know, barbed wire is really strange stuff. Under a capitalistic system, it keeps people out of places. In a communist system, it keeps people in.

Who were the machine gunners on the Berlin Wall looking for ? West Berliners or East Berliners ?

I actually responded twice, twice more than your good self on most of the other questions which are asked of you.

Sweet Jesus, let me guess. The socialist countries with resicted borders aren't really socialist ?

Secondly cite every western democracy, how well do the marxists poll ? All part of that great capitalist conspiracy I suppose.

echidna · 02-03-2003, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 99Percent
Me too, that Onion is incredibly right on!
Brilliant, just brilliant :notworthy

Cut it out, I've only just cleaned up after the last time I read it.

hal9000 · 02-03-2003, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptictank
Well, if capitalism is to blame, how do you explain the success of implementing capitalism in Poland, Hungary or the Czech Republic?
The Russian economic reform failed because it was poorly planned and executed and corrupt officials sold state enterprises to corrupt oligarchs. It had nothing to do with market economics. And things are changing in Russia and the economy is picking up, but law enforcement needs to be beefed up.
If the USSR showed that planned economies were ever so much better how come there were chronic shortages of even basic consumer products YEAR AFTER YEAR despite having some of the most productive farmland and the richest mineral resources in the world?

You must now show that capitalism has caused these people to be in "soul crushing misery" and it was NOT due any number of other factors. Conversly I CAN show how capitalism and capitalist countries have CONSITANTLY raised the standard of living for its participants year in and year out. Wanna REALLY good example? Look at Chinese economic growth rates and productivity pre-capitalist reforms and post reforms. Shocking.

Of course if you want the short answer as to why communism fails, here is your answer.....
Why Marxism REALLY fails

I think you have a good point Skeptictank, and the article is pretty funny too.

David M. Payne · 02-03-2003, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hal9000
So moon, it would seem that your argument is that communism failed because capitalism was a stronger more robust system, and kicked the crap out of communism? Interesting. But the left says that communism is the superior system, yet it never has prevailed on the world stage. I would say that that proves that capitalism is in fact the stronger more superior system. Kind of like survival of the fittest as it were.

Hal, communism, like religion, has moved into the realm of faith. Its advocates have been put into the position of having to say,
"you have to believe that it's the best and it works, honest. Trust me! I know what I'm talking about."

They have no current working examples to show you, do they? Its interesting that the older communist systems are evolving into capitalist nations. Looks like communism has evolved into the lead stage for capitalism now, who'd of thunk it?

Capitalism on the other hand works, as is plainly visible from its inception, throughout history up to today. As to how well it works, and who benefits, well that is debatable, isn't it?

Speaking of the correlations between communism and religion, I got a reply much like the one below on Rotten Tomatoes on another thread on a story of mine there. It was a little more cleverly worded than this one, but the intent to dismiss the subject as overdone and uninteresting was identical. Interesting.

Quote:

Originally posted by Celsus
Previous discussion here and probably elsewhere. Hasn't this topic been done to death?

Joel

Done to death? Isn't that what a BB is all about, asking questions and engaging in discussions, some old, some new. Hal, it looks like neither the left or the religious want to talk about their faith in their authoritarian systems too much.

It's much safer to dismiss or derail this line of inquiry. Like the theists, they end up defending their Marxist dogmas on the basis of faith, not reality.

Quote:

Originally posted by echidna
The left will continually cite Russia�s struggle as proof of capitalism�s ultimate failure. This is wrong on so many counts.

1) No system is flawless. To the extent that no pure capitalistic system exists just as no pure socialist system has existed, capitalism can be badly implemented with bad results.

2) Russia�s transition from communism to capitalism was always going to be rough. It requires not only upheaval to the economic system. Just as moon claims that socialism requires democracy (an assertion which cannot be backed up with any working examples of course), capitalism requires Rule-of-Law and political stability. With the collapse of the State, now neither exist in Russia. Barriers to free enterprise are simply too high to be workable.

3) Why not cite China ? Proof that capitalism can succeed with or without democracy. China�s transition away from communism will be more careful, and ultimately more successful. Very strong long term growth rates, widespread improvements in all social indicators, and all directly attributable to the decline of the socialist economic system. Primarily because China retains political stability & State rule-of-law, far more important when transitioning such a massive economy.

Communism - countless failed attempts, millions of lives, successful nations : zero
Capitalism � some failures, all prosperous nations capitalistic

While proletariat communist uprisings are not uncommon, neither are the proletariat cries for free enterprise after they�ve tasted socialism. Which one on average has better success ? Crikey (scratches head).

Well said echidna.

David

Perhaps my slightly altered signature is appropriate here in the political section too.

"God, Marx, and religion, the oldest scam(s) in history, and they still sucks them in today. So free your mind, and your body will follow!

moon · 02-03-2003, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by echidna
I actually responded twice, twice more than your good self on most of the other questions which are asked of you.

No, you haven't actually. You have merely vomited up some tired old Cold War cliches. In actual support of your assertion you have said nothing.

This is quite easy to understand, since your assertion has absolutely no basis in fact. Nowhere has a prolteriat of a population "cried out" for the so-called "free" market. Now, it is quite typical of ex-Cold Warriors to claim that East Europeans overthrew their Stalinist bureaucracies because they wanted the "free" market. And not because they wanted to get rid of the Stalinist bureaucracies... By this logic Leon Trotsky and his followers were also anxious to have the "free" market back, since they fought against the Stalinist bureaucracies.

It is quite apparent, though, that these populations do NOT want the "free" market, and have resisted it. But, since you have asserted otherwise, I leave it to you to provide some evidence. Please, try to do better than the Berlin wall.

Celsus · 02-03-2003, 10:11 PM

Hey 99,

How do you like satire like this or this?

David Payne,

What I'm saying is that we all know why communism doesn't work. The answers that have been posted thus far are identical to those in the previous thread. Hell, I've posted so many critiques of communism/Marxist-Leninism it isn't funny anymore. What's your point?

Joel

beyelzu · 02-03-2003, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by moon
No, you haven't actually. You have merely vomited up some tired old Cold War cliches. In actual support of your assertion you have said nothing.

This is quite easy to understand, since your assertion has absolutely no basis in fact. Nowhere has a prolteriat of a population "cried out" for the so-called "free" market. Now, it is quite typical of ex-Cold Warriors to claim that East Europeans overthrew their Stalinist bureaucracies because they wanted the "free" market. And not because they wanted to get rid of the Stalinist bureaucracies... By this logic Leon Trotsky and his followers were also anxious to have the "free" market back, since they fought against the Stalinist bureaucracies.

It is quite apparent, though, that these populations do NOT want the "free" market, and have resisted it. But, since you have asserted otherwise, I leave it to you to provide some evidence. Please, try to do better than the Berlin wall.

you know anyone from romania, moon.

I do, a college roommate.

Whether or not they clamored for free markets I dont know. But they certainly liked being able to actually buy decent products and actually getting enough to eat after the revolution.

I should really introduce you to him, he is the most hard core capitalist that I know. I think that he is that way because he has lived in one of your communist paradises and seen firsthand how much it sucks.

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02-03-2003, 10:11 PM	#39
Celsus Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Singapore Posts: 2,875	Hey 99, How do you like satire like this or this? David Payne, What I'm saying is that we all know why communism doesn't work. The answers that have been posted thus far are identical to those in the previous thread. Hell, I've posted so many critiques of communism/Marxist-Leninism it isn't funny anymore. What's your point? Joel

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