Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ruy Lopez · 05-02-2002, 06:22 AM

What makes a particular religion tolerant or intolerant? the status of its culture. When Islam was a world power in the dark ages, Christianity was intolerant. Since the renaissance,European culture has dominated and Islam should be intolerant. The reverse applies. xtianity is more tolerant now because it is not under threat.

Megatron · 05-02-2002, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave:
600 years ago Christians were doing some pretty evil, brainless things.

More recently than that - ask someone who was burned to the stake in Salem.

Godless Dave · 05-02-2002, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Archangel:


More recently than that - ask someone who was burned to the stake in Salem.

I think they only hanged people at Salem. But point taken.

[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: Godless Dave ]

hinduwoman · 05-02-2002, 04:13 PM

I hope they reform soon, because in today's world, such backwardness can really lead to war of civilizations.

sighhswolf · 05-04-2002, 03:02 PM

Why expect rational thought to arise from a totally emotional state of being?
Humans do not worship a god because they are directed to this divine being through reason and rational thought.
They worship for purely emotional reasons.
For the most part, the balance of christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists and so on know very little if anything about the worlds mystery religions other than the one they subscribe to.
They have not arrived at a stance based on investigation, they have arrived there due to
the peer pressure to conform to whatever the prevailing religious thought and practices that are present and acceptable in their enviornment. What is even more striking is the lack of knowledge concerning their own religious sect, which is another validation of the emotional aspect of organized religion. Pressed to explain the doctrines of their faith and the history of it's growth most adherents either dont know and say it, or they spit preprogramed responses from clergy, and/or memorized liturgical nonsense.
Religion by it's very nature precludes rational thought and circumvents reasoning in favor of emotional satisfaction.

Islam does not control the market in brainlessness. They just breed more zealots who are willing to die for a cause and a reward promised by some non-existant divine being.
The reason that Islam seems to be the most violent
and have the most dedicated zealots (and this is just my own opinion) is primarily
because of the intolerant nature of the Islamic society. The oppressive nature of Islamic society
and the constant flow of covetness and jealous
envy of richer and more powerful societies voiced by the Mullahs and those who hold the power in the Islamic fundamentalist societies actually breed a zealot who is filled with hate against anyone or any country that seems to offer a free and independent culture.
Poverty, forced participation in the national state religion, the oppressive nature of the doctrines provide the motivation to strive for something better, unfortunately that something is death in the name of your god for a reward of unimaginable pleasure.
Funny and ironic deal.
Wolf

hinduwoman · 05-04-2002, 05:41 PM

In India what I complain most is their habit of refusing to speak out against their brethren. And I don't mean outside India.
What I frankly want is reassurances that me and mine are safe from Islamic hatred, but I am not getting it; whenever any Muslim committs violence against hindus for religious reasons, not a single Muslim --- mullah, politican, or intellectual condemns it. how do they expect their voices to be paid heed to when they themselves become the victims?

In the recent riots muslim women have been raped and they have been raising the roof. But the problem is hindu women have been raped too, and the community seems to have a selective amnesia about this. They obbsessively focus on wthe wrongs done to them, not on wrongs they also have committed on others --- my sympathy have started drying up.

Haran · 05-04-2002, 06:24 PM

Well, I guess I don't really know all that many Brians who are Muslims, so perhaps Islam does breed a special kind of Brianlessness...

Sorry... I just couldn't resist this...

As you were...

Haran

ohwilleke · 05-06-2002, 09:40 PM

To paraphrase Anna Karenina, sensible people are all sensible in the same way, but brainless people are all brainless in their own particular ways.

lpetrich · 05-07-2002, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman:
In India what I complain most is their habit of refusing to speak out against their brethren. And I don't mean outside India.
What I frankly want is reassurances that me and mine are safe from Islamic hatred, but I am not getting it; whenever any Muslim committs violence against hindus for religious reasons, not a single Muslim --- mullah, politican, or intellectual condemns it. how do they expect their voices to be paid heed to when they themselves become the victims?

I agree. I remember after the September 11 kamikaze hijackings how no prominent Muslim cleric had ever called for a jihad against Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda. And I use the word "jihad" deliberately.

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman:
In the recent riots muslim women have been raped and they have been raising the roof. But the problem is hindu women have been raped too, and the community seems to have a selective amnesia about this. They obbsessively focus on wthe wrongs done to them, not on wrongs they also have committed on others --- my sympathy have started drying up.

Muslims are far from alone in that; simply consider both sides of the Israel-Palestine conflict. I've seen people on both sides view the suffering of the other side as a non-issue. And I would not be surprised if some Hindus are like that also.

05-07-2002, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by lpetrich:

Quote:

I agree. I remember after the September 11 kamikaze hijackings how no prominent Muslim cleric had ever called for a jihad against Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda. And I use the word "jihad" deliberately.

Well, perhaps not a jihad, but how's <a href="http://www.secularislam.org/articles/wtc.htm#Ziauddin%20Sardar" target="_blank">this article by Ziauddin Sardar</a> for a fatwa? This was originally published in the British paperThe Observer.

I would agree, however, that muslims tend to hang together and believe the best of fellow muslims and the worst of their opponents. But other religionists do likewise. It's a bit like "my country, right or wrong".

[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: DMB ]

[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: DMB ]

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05-02-2002, 06:22 AM	#11
Ruy Lopez Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Manila Posts: 5,516	What makes a particular religion tolerant or intolerant? the status of its culture. When Islam was a world power in the dark ages, Christianity was intolerant. Since the renaissance,European culture has dominated and Islam should be intolerant. The reverse applies. xtianity is more tolerant now because it is not under threat.

05-02-2002, 04:13 PM	#14
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	I hope they reform soon, because in today's world, such backwardness can really lead to war of civilizations.

05-04-2002, 03:02 PM	#15
sighhswolf Regular Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Charlotte,NC USA Posts: 379	Why expect rational thought to arise from a totally emotional state of being? Humans do not worship a god because they are directed to this divine being through reason and rational thought. They worship for purely emotional reasons. For the most part, the balance of christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists and so on know very little if anything about the worlds mystery religions other than the one they subscribe to. They have not arrived at a stance based on investigation, they have arrived there due to the peer pressure to conform to whatever the prevailing religious thought and practices that are present and acceptable in their enviornment. What is even more striking is the lack of knowledge concerning their own religious sect, which is another validation of the emotional aspect of organized religion. Pressed to explain the doctrines of their faith and the history of it's growth most adherents either dont know and say it, or they spit preprogramed responses from clergy, and/or memorized liturgical nonsense. Religion by it's very nature precludes rational thought and circumvents reasoning in favor of emotional satisfaction. Islam does not control the market in brainlessness. They just breed more zealots who are willing to die for a cause and a reward promised by some non-existant divine being. The reason that Islam seems to be the most violent and have the most dedicated zealots (and this is just my own opinion) is primarily because of the intolerant nature of the Islamic society. The oppressive nature of Islamic society and the constant flow of covetness and jealous envy of richer and more powerful societies voiced by the Mullahs and those who hold the power in the Islamic fundamentalist societies actually breed a zealot who is filled with hate against anyone or any country that seems to offer a free and independent culture. Poverty, forced participation in the national state religion, the oppressive nature of the doctrines provide the motivation to strive for something better, unfortunately that something is death in the name of your god for a reward of unimaginable pleasure. Funny and ironic deal. Wolf

05-04-2002, 05:41 PM	#16
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	In India what I complain most is their habit of refusing to speak out against their brethren. And I don't mean outside India. What I frankly want is reassurances that me and mine are safe from Islamic hatred, but I am not getting it; whenever any Muslim committs violence against hindus for religious reasons, not a single Muslim --- mullah, politican, or intellectual condemns it. how do they expect their voices to be paid heed to when they themselves become the victims? In the recent riots muslim women have been raped and they have been raising the roof. But the problem is hindu women have been raped too, and the community seems to have a selective amnesia about this. They obbsessively focus on wthe wrongs done to them, not on wrongs they also have committed on others --- my sympathy have started drying up.

05-04-2002, 06:24 PM	#17
Haran Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 1,490	Well, I guess I don't really know all that many Brians who are Muslims, so perhaps Islam does breed a special kind of Brianlessness... Sorry... I just couldn't resist this... As you were... Haran

05-06-2002, 09:40 PM	#18
ohwilleke Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Denver, Colorado, USA Posts: 4,834	To paraphrase Anna Karenina, sensible people are all sensible in the same way, but brainless people are all brainless in their own particular ways.

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