echidna

Let me also comment on this, again I hope without offending, because I hear this from time to time as well.

Firstly of my childless friends, I think there is only one couple who actually disdains parenthood. The rest have simply made a choice for one reason or another.

But selfishness can be seen from both sides. We all express our altruism in different ways and as such value different things. Personally I think I identify most with the disabled and persecuted members of the community. But other friends might highly value our local and global environment.

Instantly there is generally conflict when one mother says "look I really don’t have time for the environment, I’ve got 3 kids you know". Another parent might say "I’d really prefer that my children didn’t associate with disabled children, I mean they’ve got problems after all". In a sense parenthood can also bring its own degree of self-indulgence, even if it is through one’s own family. I don’t think anyone’s invulnerable from it, as you suggest. We’re only human after all, trying to make the best of things in our own ways.

I think it would be unfair of me to judge anyone else’s priorities as better or worse than mine, just different. In many ways we need everyone’s priorities to make the world a better place.

Ms. Siv

I know I might cause some wrath here, but ... someone please tell me whats so noble about getting married, staying married, producing and rearing children ? Sure, some people might opt for it, but its by no means a universal objective !
We're genetically programmed to think it is our aim in life, but that doesn't make it necessarily true. Isn't it time we outwitted our genes (we've already started doing so) ?

Of course, our species shouldn't die out, thats for sure. But thats really in no danger of happening (quite the opposite, in fact!).
So why is breeding still of such high priority ?

There's so much more to life.

There's friends, there's science, there are books, there's caring for other animals, there's caring for destitute or orphaned children, there's journalism, there's music, there's teaching, there are computers, there's the internet, there's e-mail ....

The entire universe is out there ... and we're still concerned about propgating our genes ? Isn't that a very narrow outlook to life ?

- Sivakami.

Jamie_L

There's nothing inherintly noble about it, any more than there's something inherintly noble about being loyal to your friends or maintaining personal integrity or saving someone's life.

Getting married, having kids, creating a family etc. are things that make a good number of people feel happy and fulfilled. For other people the pursuit of science may make them happy. Or developing deep friendships. Or traveling the world. Or playing video games. Whatever works.

The flip side is there is nothing inherintly wrong or insignificant about getting married, having kids. This makes my life better, so I do it. If something else makes your life better, do that. I got no problem with people who want a different life. I do have a problem with people who tell me my life is just conformism (not anyone here necessarily, but some have said that). Everyone's got to follow their own path.

Jamie

Ms. Siv

Shouldn't we analyse why that is so ?

Not whatever, Jamie. IMO a person who spends all his/her time in hedonism or in delusion leads a relatively less valuable life. Yeah, you may call me an elitist, but thats me

Anyway, I agree with your point that there's nothing wrong with wanting a family.

- Sivakami.

MassAtheist

I think it depends on if you classify different kinds of love as different emotions or not. The love I feel for my mom, my wife, and my children are all very different. We English speakers use the same word to describe these very different feelings. I believe that other languages use different words for different kinds of love.

So, if you think that the love you feel for a parent, a pet, or a lover is the same basic emotion, then I doubt you will find any new emotions as a parent. I personally do not think that these are the same emotions.

One aspect of the feeling I have for my children that I had not previously experienced is the fierce protectionism (if that's a word). Any threat to my children creates an incredibly intense anger that I cannot describe. I just hope that nothing ever happens that will cause me to act on this anger.

DRFseven

This makes no sense; you're not the one experiencing them, so you have no grounds to tell parents that they are not experiencing something new. If it feels new, it feels new; period. The vast majority of parents feel this way, so the case you are trying to make is hopeless. Sure, there are a small minority who report not feeling anything different, but there is no way to know whether you might be one of those or not. I hope, if you ever have children, you are not one of these few.

DRFseven

There is nothing inherently noble or ignoble about it. Or about remaining childless.

(Edited to add: Sorry, Jamie; you already said that!)

[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: DRFseven ]</p>

DRFseven

At least in this forum, this is a non-issue, alek. No one wants you to have children if you don't want to or can't.

Hobbs

I wasn't going to say anything else here, but after some of the recent responses, I'll go ahead and ask the above question to the parents here:

Just what were you expecting parenthood would be like?

I knew that I would be experiencing emotions that I hadn't actually experienced before, so it didn't surprise me when I did. And, I had watched and listened to parents, and read things written by parents, and imagined what someone like me would be like in that position, and imagined what those experiences might be like. I seemed to be able to do a reasonably good job of it.

MassAtheist said: "One aspect of the feeling I have for my children that I had not previously experienced is the fierce protectionism (if that's a word). Any threat to my children creates an incredibly intense anger that I cannot describe. I just hope that nothing ever happens that will cause me to act on this anger."

I ask: in addition to not having previously experienced this, did you not expect to feel something like this? Was it a surprise to you that you did? Did you say "wow, I never realized anyone could feel this way" rather than "oh, so this is what it is like to feel this way; I knew others did, and I knew I would feel far more fiercely protective about something than I ever had before, and now I'm feeling it."

DRFseven, on a much more mundane note, noted: "I remember once standing around at a party with a bunch of people, when we were all around the age of thirty. We were all slightly incredulous that we seemed to be developing a rather strong interest in lawns (in my case, in lawn reduction). None of us ex-hippies would have ever, in our wildest dreams, imagined that we would want to putter about our yards on weekends wearing gardening gloves, that we would know things about grass seed and rose varieties. Never say never!"

In response, I ask: why would you not have been able to imagine that?

Before I became a parent, I realized that it would be different from anything I had personally experienced before. But I didn't expect it to be unimaginably different. I didn't expect it to be all that different from what, based on paying attention to and learning from others who were parents and imagining what someone like me would be like in that position, I was imagining it would probably be like. And I've found that it isn't.

I'm not saying that I haven't experienced new things, or that I'm not different from what I was like before. My point is that I expected this, and that, given that I expected it and that I paid attention to the words and actions of those who were parents, I was able to do a good job of anticipating what it would be like.

Are there other parents here who saw it that way? Or am I just weird?

[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: Hobbs ]</p>

MassAtheist

I fully expected new emotions, but I had no concept of what they would be or of how strong they would be. I knew that parents felt strongly about their kids, but I never understood what that meant. Let me put it another way, once my children were born, I gained a completely new understanding of, and respect for, my own parents. I felt like I finally knew how they felt about me - it was a pretty humbling experience for me.

That being said, I'm pretty low on the "Emotional Intelligence" scale - I don't relate to other's emotions well at all. So I really need to experience an emotion to understand it.