yguy

If men respect women as human beings, they won't have the "4F" mentality. Less sex out of wedlock, less childbirth out of wedlock; and fewer abortions as a consequence.

They weren't meant to be. I thought you wanted to drop that line of discussion.

brighid

Thank you for clarifying your previous statements. I agree if males are raised to respect women as valuable, human beings, worthy of equal dignity and opportunity this could foreseeably lessen unwanted or crises pregnancies, and hence lessen abortions.

How would society go about implementing such ideas, especially amongst those segments of that population (who consequently have higher out of wedlock pregnancy rates) that are Christian, and who have biblical mandates that are contrary to the equality of the sexes?


Yes, but your statements were rather vague and I wasn't sure what you were getting at. Again, thank you for the clarification.

Brighid

Daleth

yguy, That's just not an answer. If eliminating feminism is going to stop abortions, OK, why is that and HOW are you in practical terms going to go about that? If duping women into believing that there is only one acceptable way of using their bodies and that this position is somehow NOT objectifying them, HOW are you going to go about convincing them of this?

Or do you admit that there's no practical way to do what you're suggesting, just as I admit that there's no practical way of removing the sacred nobility of motherhood which would make adoption a more viable alternative?

Dal

yguy

Who said anything about elimating feminism? I'm not its greatest fan, naturally, but that doesn't mean everthing about it is wrong.

I'm looking at this from a man's POV. If we refuse to use women, then women who insist on being used will have to either become lesbians, celibate or be content with the natural power they have as the bearers of children without the power to screw with men's brains - which is a power you guys are better off without anyway.

I am suggesting a radical change in consciousness, to be sure. There are men who have made such a change. If some can do it, more can do it.

yguy

I don't know that society can do it from the outside. They'd have to drop the Bible literalism.

That said, I'm not a big fan of the idea of equality of the sexes, especially in marriage. I don't see anything wrong with the man being the head of the family, and I think he should be. The trick is, he needs to earn the respect it takes to hold such authority, rather than pointing to a scripture that says he's the boss, or otherwise intimidating the wife into submission.

Again, I thought I was being perfectly clear; but evidently I wasn't, so your misperception was not willful. Sorry for getting so prickly there.

Daleth

OK, that's more clear... and so was your previous post, which wasn't showing when I was typing my response. What you're suggesting is the same sort of thing I was suggesting in my first post on this thread. Different object, but still another change in thinking. So we're still left with the best practical solution (and really the only practical solution we've come up with) being education and birth control.

You are so funny! The power we have as the bearers of children? How completely demeaning. How objectifying! I'm a person. I'm not an incubator. I have given birth to 2 dead babies. I feel so bloody powerful! Nobody uses me but me. And I use myself any damned way I like. You can not possibly know what gives me power. I can tell you for sure it hasn't been childbearing.

Dal

Loren Pechtel

Treating a woman as a human being doesn't mean no sex without marriage. Sex is a normal thing for an adult human to engage in, married or not.

Loren Pechtel

Why does there need to be a head? In our marriage, who is in charge depends on what it is. If it's an area I'm better at, it's my call. If it's an area she's better at, it's her call.

yguy

You are both, are you not? How is it demeaning to say that you have an ability that men lack?

Daleth

No, I'm not. Lots of women are not. Lots of women can't have babies. Did you read what I wrote? I'll repeat. I'm the mother of 2 dead babies. I have twice given birth to corpses. I have no living children.

We should be satisfied with the natural power we have as the bearers of children, you said. So women who can't have children should be satisfied with having no power at all, I take it.

Pregnancy is weakening, not empowering. It makes you sick. It makes you hurt. It permanently alters your body. Childbirth rips you apart. A woman is not in control of her prgnancy. The pregnancy controls her. Therefore it is the giving up of power for the wellbeing of what one hopes will result in another life.

It is demeaning to suggest that I should find all my power in something nature tagged me for. That's not power. That's acquiescence. Power is in making choices, not in accepting whatever comes your way.

Dal