Freethought & Rationalism Archive

braces_for_impact · 07-10-2003, 07:47 AM

I find it interesting that any title with "hell" in the OP gets Magus55 running in there like a moth to a flame. Anyone else notice that?

AndresDeLaHoz · 07-10-2003, 08:45 AM

Yeah, those classic half-assed christian excuses. Over here it's "hell is when YOU are away from God, who's all-merciful and omnibenevolent and gave you all the chances you needed". Of course, when I ask "so, if I were in the abscence of God, couldn't I just say, 'hey god, i fucked up, accept me' and since he's good and all, he'd accept me". After this point, I get some random comments about how Communist Hollywood is killing God and the conversation delves into the deep realm of nothing.

Biff the unclean · 07-10-2003, 09:31 AM

From the Catholic Encylodedia:

Quote:

Lucifer

(Hebrew helel; Septuagint heosphoros, Vulgate lucifer)

The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning" (Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (II Petr. 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exultet" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life. The Syriac version and the version of Aquila derive the Hebrew noun helel from the verb yalal, "to lament"; St. Jerome agrees with them (In Isaiah 1:14), and makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory bright as the morning star. In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4).

It should be noted that St Jerome knew Bishop Lucifer of Cagliari who was one of the biggest religious S.O.B.'s of all time. He founded the Luciferians who were the original version of "the Spanish Inquisition," a church organization formed to pursue and punish heretics that the Imperial government had to put a lid on because they were too violent and vicious for even Roman standards. There may well have been good reason that Jerome thought Lucifer was an appropriate name for the devil.

cydonia · 07-10-2003, 06:53 PM

Regarding why atheists (At the moment I consider myself an agnostic) are "obsessed" with hell, from my own experience I never really had a choice. I was brought up to fear god and to know if I slipped up I would burn for eternity. When you get that sort of conditioning, over and over and over, as you grow up, it's hard to just "forget" about it. Fear doesn't just vanish, even when you are doing your best to be reasonable and logical about it. I think by finding all the absurdities regarding hell, it helps to ease that fear and show it for the boogey man it really is. But there's still that scared kid inside who isn't quite sure, the one who believes everything grown-ups tell him...

It's definitely not like I have nothing better to do than think about hell and try to debunk it, it's a battle I had no part in creating and I'm doing my best to get past it.

Anyway.

Rational BAC · 07-10-2003, 09:04 PM

I was never brought up to "fear God". It is not in my nature to fear anything that is not on a real day to day basis.

Irrational fear is absurd. If atheism helps you overcome this, that is a plus.

But the real cause of your inner fear is really within yourself and irrational --------and has nothing to do with any kind of belief system or lack thereof.

Forget the "fear" part. Find the "love" in Christianity. Love is what Christianity is all about after you shake off all the stupidity tacked on later.

Rational BAC · 07-10-2003, 09:06 PM

Sorry for another double post.

I wish there was a simple way to correct this type of thing on this ordinarily very easy-to-use forum------------as it is on so many others. (Hell---usually just easily delete one post) And it is bye-bye for the duplicate.---------

-----Just tried to delete one of them again and it just does not work. Why is such a simple thing to do for other forums so difficult to do on this forum?

cydonia · 07-10-2003, 09:49 PM

I agree the fear is within myself and irrational, and it began with the whole christianity bag, especially the hell concept. It's good to look objectively at the irrational thoughts that lead to fear, by picking them apart and seeing the reality underneath you can hopefully replace that fear with something else.

As far as Christianity being about love, I know that's the popular notion. There are parts in the Bible that can support that, but I feel the parts that support violence, revenge, and cruelty outweigh them.

The_Unknown_Banana · 07-10-2003, 09:58 PM

Hell is being surrounded by flames for eternity, without any marshmellows!

Magus, I feel you still haven't answered how you justify saying something like this:

Quote:

Satan will be chained in the Lake of Fire, facing punishment like everyone else... ...Satan doesn't have that kind of power. Not to mention he will be chained in the Lake of Fire for eternity, never to escape. Kinda tough to throw a party when you are bound forever.

followed by this:

Quote:

The good on Earth comes from God and Heaven, and the evil, pain and suffering comes from Satan and sin. Basically a spiritual battle between God and Satan, Heaven and Hell - with the Earth being the battle ground. God and angels fight for our salvation, Satan and the "fallen" angels fight for our destruction.

As pointed out by PandaJoe

- the former says he barely has any power, and is suffering in eternal torment like anyone else. Then you say that God is fighting him, and that all sin comes from him - a powerless being fighting for sin, whilst tied to a lake of fire. He must be pretty powerful to be any sort of opposition to God whilst having both hands tied behind his back.

07-10-2003, 10:04 PM

I'm still wondering how we can be "separated" (in hell) from an omnipresent god.

Biff the unclean · 07-11-2003, 08:17 AM

Rational if you would actually read the NT, and not just the parts you want to, you will find the the message of Jesus is YOU WILL BURN IN HELL. It was the lovey dovey part that was added on later. What you consider the core of Christianity you will find in no Christian scholarly works before the late seventeen earl eight teen hundreds.
Also remember that you are talking to Atheists. It is only recently that Theists have been forced to stop murdering us out of Christian love and be content with slander

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07-10-2003, 07:47 AM	#31
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	I find it interesting that any title with "hell" in the OP gets Magus55 running in there like a moth to a flame. Anyone else notice that?

07-10-2003, 08:45 AM	#32
AndresDeLaHoz Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 567	Yeah, those classic half-assed christian excuses. Over here it's "hell is when YOU are away from God, who's all-merciful and omnibenevolent and gave you all the chances you needed". Of course, when I ask "so, if I were in the abscence of God, couldn't I just say, 'hey god, i fucked up, accept me' and since he's good and all, he'd accept me". After this point, I get some random comments about how Communist Hollywood is killing God and the conversation delves into the deep realm of nothing.

07-10-2003, 06:53 PM	#34
cydonia Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 1,002	Regarding why atheists (At the moment I consider myself an agnostic) are "obsessed" with hell, from my own experience I never really had a choice. I was brought up to fear god and to know if I slipped up I would burn for eternity. When you get that sort of conditioning, over and over and over, as you grow up, it's hard to just "forget" about it. Fear doesn't just vanish, even when you are doing your best to be reasonable and logical about it. I think by finding all the absurdities regarding hell, it helps to ease that fear and show it for the boogey man it really is. But there's still that scared kid inside who isn't quite sure, the one who believes everything grown-ups tell him... It's definitely not like I have nothing better to do than think about hell and try to debunk it, it's a battle I had no part in creating and I'm doing my best to get past it. Anyway.

07-10-2003, 09:04 PM	#35
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	I was never brought up to "fear God". It is not in my nature to fear anything that is not on a real day to day basis. Irrational fear is absurd. If atheism helps you overcome this, that is a plus. But the real cause of your inner fear is really within yourself and irrational --------and has nothing to do with any kind of belief system or lack thereof. Forget the "fear" part. Find the "love" in Christianity. Love is what Christianity is all about after you shake off all the stupidity tacked on later.

07-10-2003, 09:06 PM	#36
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Sorry for another double post. I wish there was a simple way to correct this type of thing on this ordinarily very easy-to-use forum------------as it is on so many others. (Hell---usually just easily delete one post) And it is bye-bye for the duplicate.--------- -----Just tried to delete one of them again and it just does not work. Why is such a simple thing to do for other forums so difficult to do on this forum?

07-10-2003, 09:49 PM	#37
cydonia Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 1,002	I agree the fear is within myself and irrational, and it began with the whole christianity bag, especially the hell concept. It's good to look objectively at the irrational thoughts that lead to fear, by picking them apart and seeing the reality underneath you can hopefully replace that fear with something else. As far as Christianity being about love, I know that's the popular notion. There are parts in the Bible that can support that, but I feel the parts that support violence, revenge, and cruelty outweigh them.

07-10-2003, 10:04 PM	#39
atheist_in_foxhole Guest Posts: n/a	I'm still wondering how we can be "separated" (in hell) from an omnipresent god.

07-11-2003, 08:17 AM	#40
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Rational if you would actually read the NT, and not just the parts you want to, you will find the the message of Jesus is YOU WILL BURN IN HELL. It was the lovey dovey part that was added on later. What you consider the core of Christianity you will find in no Christian scholarly works before the late seventeen earl eight teen hundreds. Also remember that you are talking to Atheists. It is only recently that Theists have been forced to stop murdering us out of Christian love and be content with slander

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