Hobbs

I live my life without a god now, and I'm far from being a depressed nihilist. In fact, I'm happier now than when I was a born-again, bible-believing Christian. But, since I know Christians who are happier now than they were when younger, my present increased happiness is likely at least to a large degree the result of being older and more mature, with more knowledge of myself and life and how to live it, than with not being a Christian.

Why would it be necessary to remove all the brotherly love as well as God's love, if we're just talking about life without God? Take all the alleged love of God out of the equation, and there's still plenty of my love left, and my wife's love, etc etc. God isn't the only source of love. Take away my love, and that of my non-theist (or would it be a much bigger crowd and include all of my non-One-True-Christian-Denomination) family and friends who would be left here with me in your scenario, and life may indeed be pretty miserable. But why would removing God and his love take away our love?

If what I'm experiencing now is life without God, then I'll take as much as I can get. If life without God is something horrible that I have no conception of, then I can't see how you can claim that I have chosen something that I have no conception of. I can't choose for or against something I don't know anything about.

Another thing about your point here: Are you saying that you don't believe what the Bible says about Hell, i.e. that it is lots of positive torture on top of the complete absense of God? So, you don't accept the Bible as the inerrant word of God? If not, on what basis do you make your decisions about what in the Bible is or is not accurate "Truth"?

One more point: sorry about adding to the avalanche of questions falling down on you, but, as you noted, we don't have a lot of believers here to debate, so there are only a few targets for our questions. Please do see if you can get some theist friends to join you; it would help balance things out a bit, and let us receive more questions we would have to answer as well. More fun for everyone!

RJS

I (and many others) have become used to referring to God as a He. It likely is a result of the history of society as well as the explicit references to Him, He, Father found in my favorite book Of course, gender neutral bibles exist too.

However, it is quite possible that such terminology is only used because that is what can be most fully understood by us in this life. I do believe Jesus existed as a man. I actually much prefer CS Lewis description of God (the Father) as a mind.

Hobbs

If by "God" you mean such things as "love," "hope," and an "exit," well then I guess I agree with you: "God" exists. I believe in love (I myself am a source of love of others, and I've experienced others' love of me), I believe in hope (I have lots of hopes, and since lots of [though not all] my previous hopes have been attained, I have hope that at least some of my present and future hopes will be attained), and I believe in an exit (though I suspect it will come sooner than I would prefer; I hope not, though).

What I see no reason to believe is that love, hope, and an exit are some personal being that can be called "God." And I certainly cannot fathom equating love, hope, and an exit with the character Yahweh of the Bible (well, maybe the "exit" part).

MrDarwin

And yet you haven't suggested why God might have chosen to create such consequences. As the omnipotent creator of everything, it was God's choice what to do with those who reject him/her/it--and being omniscient, this deity surely knew that there would be lots of them. Why would a benevolent God choose to allow souls to suffer with no hope (ever) of reprieve? Once done, what good will come of it? Or do you believe that some things that God chooses to do will come to no good at all?

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

free12thinker

RJS

When you equate happiness to loving and knowing god, do you do so with the assumption that people who don't know or love god (like me and other atheists) really aren't happy? Or are you simply stating that you're happiness is dependent on knowing and loving god? This is my first question.

I have another question for you. If you can, try and answer it as detailed as possible. What does god have control over and what does he not have control over? If he has control over everything, what does he choose to control and what does he choose to let "be". I ask this to get back to the original question at hand. Did god cause this heatwave and did he have a purpose for it? If the purpose was to serve as a form of punishment, do you find this fair? If you find this fair, how do you find it different than what Hitler did to the jews. They both persecuted people for not believing in what they believed in. Or, you could choose to reason with some who argued that Hitler was the work of the devil, and then we still have the question "What does God have control over and what does he choose to control"?

Hans

RJS

I should have been more specific, my apologies.

I'm curious if your beliefs about what hell is like are based on references from the Christian bible or are they your "best guess" interpretation of an area that lacks clear definition within same.

Sci_Fidelity

Posted by Brighid:


Well, that's for sure...

RJS

i probably should limit it only to agape love, not other types of love, including brotherly.

RJS

It was my illustration of what I think hell could be like, in part, based on the limited references in the bible - torment, gnashing of teeth, etc. I was trying to illustrate it by equating it as closely as possible with our current existence.

And instead of the word absence of God, I would probably be better served using the term separation from God.

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>

MrDarwin

Okay, here's my "zinger", although it's a pretty simple yes-or-no question:

Is it possible for God to do anything that has unintended consequences?