tronvillain

Sure... except that you haven't even supported the assertion that it is the most common male fantasy.

Also, I see nothing "immature" about strip clubs or pornography, though I tend to find strip clubs somewhat boring. They are not even vaguely comparable to prayer or faith healing.

ju'iblex

Care to elaborate Amen? If my arguments were unsubstantiated the i would dearly le\ove it if you would tell me where instead of rattling of three words and leaving it as so.

Precambrian Carl

Also, I see nothing "immature" about strip clubs or pornography, though I tend to find strip clubs somewhat boring. They are not even vaguely comparable to prayer or faith healing.

They are the same. Look at the men sitting in the club or the church. They are both transfixed (if not napping, of course).

I can set up a web site and entice immature adults or I can set up a church and entice gullible adults. If people refuse the temptation for nude photographs, I shut down the site. If others refuse the temptation for everlasting life, I shut down the church. I lose if there are no immature or gullible people.

And marketing the site or the church starts with young, immature (gullible) customers. The earlier I can pull them in, the longer they will stay. It is the same with beer and tobacco.

Carl

tronvillain

Precambrian Carl:
Of course! How could I have missed it? They are the same because they capture people's attention! Perhaps we should group them together with reading, watching television, going to movies, and attending sporting events.

You are simply asserting that those who consume pornography are immature. Perhaps you would care to share the criteria by which you assess maturity with the rest of us, as well as the justification for those criteria?

Teenagers actively seek out pornography, while they have religion forced upon them during childhood - I fail to see the similarity. They are both quite different from alcohol and tobacco, which are in turn quite different from each other.

Amen-Moses

I have yet to see anything remotely approaching a substantiated argument from you in this thread, unless you thing just typing a priori is an argument.

For completeness I will state that the stats for common sexual fantasies come from a variety of surveys, any one of which you can probably find in Cosmopolitan next time you visit the dentist.

From a purely zoological perspective the survey results actually make sense in that the typical mammalian courting strategy is geared towards the male attempting to produce pleasurable (for want of a better term) feelings within the female being courted, often at great personal risk to the male.

We discussed this topic in the bar last night and someone actually attempted to answer my questions (unlike here) but suggested that the male drive towards giving the female pleasure in sex is a modern concept driven by the feminist movement. Personally I doubt this very much because even amongst the hardest male enclaves such as street gangs or miners the worst insult you could make is to claim that a man can't satisfy his partner in bed and I have no doubt this holds true whether you live in some Pacific Island paradise or in the heart of Taliban country.

Amen-Moses

tronvillain

Amen-Moses:
Of course, you are completely unable to link to any of these surveys. I on the other hand will link to <a href="http://www.womansown.com/mar02/mensfantasies.html" target="_blank">here</a>, <a href="http://www.heretical.org/sexsci-w/sfantasy.html" target="_blank">here</a>, and <a href="http://e-crap.com/sex_crap/polls.html" target="_blank">here</a>, none of which seem to indicate anthing of the sort.

Pardon? By the time you are having sex, courting is over and wanting your partner to have sex with another man makes no no sense whatsoever from an evolutionary perspective.

The male drive towards pleasuring a woman is certainly not recent in human history, but there have been and still are many cultures in which a woman's pleasure is irrelevant or is even negative. Ever heard of female genital mutilation?

ju'iblex

true, its not a good argument. but then again, if you had been kind enough to give me a point in the first place perhaps my rebukes would have been better! if you would like me to elaborate on something, then go ahead and ask.
how droll, using stereotypes to create humour.

so they come from a variety of surveys? well then you wont have any trouble finding them for us will you?
what survey? from where?

Amen-Moses

Interesting quote from one of the links:

From the "Dream Date, ONE Sexual Activity" poll:
47% of the guys said they would choose pleasuring the woman over having the woman pleasure them in some way if only ONE sexual activity could happen. The next closest was vaginal intercourse (25%) and receiving oral sex (16%).

Doesn't really tie in with objectification does it!

Fear and fantasy are closely linked, one of the poossible reasons why we dream in the first place is in order to try out in a virtual world scenarios that we are afraid may occur in the real one but there is a fine line between what we fantasise about and what we actually want.

I am still waiting for an answer to the reason why women fake orgasm and bringing up FGM is a red herring as MGM is far more prevalent!

Amen-Moses

snatchbalance

AM

Why do women fake Orgasms? Well, I'm a M, but I'll give it a shot.

1. She is genuinly concerned with her partner's feelings, and thinks that it will make her partner feel better about himself.

2. She dosen't particularly care about her partner but detects a very fragile ego.

3. She's tired and wants to end the encounter on pleasant note.

4. There may be some sort of covert motives that lead her need to decieve her partner.

5. She might have been taught that it is the polite thing to do.

When I see my girlfriend I'll ask her and let you know what she says.

SB

Precambrian Carl

Of course! How could I have missed it? They are the same because they capture people's attention!

I am beginning to understand how these discussions become filled with lengthy dissertations. This is being turned into something more complex than it should be. We all seem to understand the marketing of Christianity and the characteristics of its customers. Many thousands of words have been written on these pages.

Why, then, is it so difficult to understand something more basic?

Men watching nude women dancing on a stage


Perhaps we should group them together with reading, watching television, going to movies, and attending sporting events.

I did not want to add more things to the mix, even though the people who run network television, for example, rely on the same lack of maturity as those who run pornographic web sites or strip clubs.

If an owner of a strip club says he markets to mature men, do you believe him? Who makes up the majority of his customer base? What do you think they have in common? The customers share a particular level of maturity and the club owner knows this. He hopes they remain at that level for their entire adult lives.


You are simply asserting that those who consume pornography are immature. Perhaps you would care to share the criteria by which you assess maturity with the rest of us, as well as the justification for those criteria?

I know that some men grow up and some do not. Objectification of women only happens when men remain immature. LadyShea works with immature men. She once danced for immature men. If they were mature, she would respect them, not hold them in contempt.

You could also ask what criteria I use to assess social responsibility. That might take a manuscript. I understand much of it is subjective and that is why I hesitate entering into a discussion about definitions and criteria.

As far as criteria, I think LadyShea’s list is a good starting point. However, listing criteria for an immature adult should not be necessary. We know who they are. We know how they behave. We have them in our families.

Do you accept that the men LadyShea works with are immature? If you do not, how would you describe them? We could be using two different words to describe the same people. If we can’t come to an agreement about LadyShea’s male co-workers, we might as well stop talking.


Teenagers actively seek out pornography, while they have religion forced upon them during childhood - I fail to see the similarity.

The marketing is the same, however. And it is successful due to the immaturity and gullibility of the customers.

Teenagers actively seek out pornography and then some grow up. As I mentioned above, marketing of porn is the same as marketing of network comedies. The customers are the same and I describe them as immature. The marketing department describes them differently, for obvious reasons. What other words would you use to describe these customers?

Those who market Marian apparitions know who their customers are. They are primarily uneducated, superstitious, and gullible. The marketing department (Vatican) describes them differently, for obvious reasons. What other words would you use to describe these customers?


They are both quite different from alcohol and tobacco, which are in turn quite different from each other.

From a marketing perspective, they are the same. Sales of beer and tobacco depend on teenagers. Very few people start smoking or drinking beer at the age of 25.

Carl