Peter Kirby

IronMonkey writes: "Kirby once stated that its nonsensical to create a (false) dichotomy between HJ and MJ."

IronMonkey quotes me: "It is irrational to assert that two extremes are the only options when there is a large middle ground inbetween."

Here is what I first wrote in that thread: "There is one thing that I have noticed among some mythicists and some Christians: they treat the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith as a package deal. So, if you think there was some kind of Jesus, blammo...Jesus rose on the third day. Or, if you don't believe in all the miracle stories, shazam, Jesus disappears. A good secular historian avoids such stark dichotomies."

Obviously, the two extremes are a Gospel Jesus who performed miracles and rose from the dead and a completely non-existent mythical Jesus, corresponding to the views of N. T. Wright and Earl Doherty. The middle ground would be those who see Jesus as neither 100% mythical nor 100% factual, such as E. P. Sanders and J. D. Crossan.

IronMonkey writes: "Kirby never responded to that." This is because you had misrepresented me. I don't see the point in extending conversation with someone who doesn't understand what I am saying.

best,
Peter Kirby

godfry n. glad

The gospel Jesus is a mythic creation. As to whether there actually existed some individual that served as a germinal source for that mythic creation, I stand as an agnostic.

So... I'm agnostic, leaning to the MJ.

godfry n. glad

Fr.Andrew

Agnostic

Justin70

100% Mythical. Massey and Kuhn pretty much closed the lid on that issue awhile ago IMHO.

Toto

But we're still talking about it.

Massey and Kuhn appear to be Theosophists. Both show up on Acharya S's bibliography.

Ii am collecting these links here for reference - haven't read them all. Life is too short to read everything the Theosophists wrote.

Some works by Kuhn (1880-1963) ; his bio

Massey

Yellum Notnef

Agnostic leaning towards myth.

Asha'man

I agree with Psycho Economist, I think we need a new category for both: a merger between a real troublemaker and an entirely mythical hero.

There is so little left of the historical Jesus that I hesitate to even use the word historical. However, I think that such a man probably existed, and his name and memory were stolen and corrupted using available myths.

Bumble Bee Tuna

I'm agnostic, but the most likely situation to me seems like it would be historical guy who was mythicized to the point where nothing in the Bible is the right representation- so basically everything we have heard about Jesus is a myth, but he still existed and people capitalized on his existence long afterward.

But, I'm agnostic, I really have no idea and don't think we'll ever find out. That's just what seems likely to me.

-B

JEST2ASK

Also agnostic ....I agree ... it is very unlikely we will ever be able to re-construct who any of this (Christianity) is based on ... the only thing I am relatively sure of is that what we have can only hint at the existence of later figures (Peter - Paul - James (J-C's brother) - Thomas - etc ) but even there the picture is incomplete


I am somewhat confused ..... is there not an actual "Poll" to vote on or is it forth coming once all the catogories / choices are better defined

Anyways interesting subject .....

JEST2ASK

Just an Observation:

The exchange(s) between IronMonkey ... Toto & Peter Kirby

Ilustrate nicely to me the problem with trying to discover the real JC .... after all if in this modern age with all the tools we have at our disposal .... I could not help but notice (and be amused by) how without direct interaction to correct / clarify innocent human error (IMO ) would lead to drastic misunderstanding ... the simple non-inclusion of a smilie for instance .... I can Imagine JC - Pilate - John the Baptist- reading the accounts of themselves in Mark for example ... saying WTF I never said any of that junk or where was I when that happened .....