lunachick

Buddrow. You are taking a whole other ENORMOUS side-issue of the potential consequences of screwing, and using that one ENORMOUS point to be your sole platform on something that, believe me, is so much fucking bigger!

One step at time. Life before death, prevention before "cure", and all that...

lunachick

What he said; only edited a bit.

Pyrrho

I'm not sure I really want to know, but who or what is "BOB"?

Buddrow_Wilson

To be honest, I am at the point of agreeing that both sides have valid points. So for the moment lets put that aside and agree to disagree.

Can we not all agree that it will always be true that, regardless of legislation, the woman will generally always have the largest burden of supporting the children that result from non-loving relationships? And with that would be wise in the spirit of self-preservation to consider it effectively their sole responsibility to do what is necessary to prevent an unwanted pregnancy from occurring? And to not assume that there will be any support from a man who was known only casually?

Consider a large group of people who gather to have orgies. They names of people who are participating may not be known or available to all. A woman gets pregnant. Who has to deal with this?

lunachick

Umm, well, no, not really. These are some of the essential questions we are currently disagreeing about.

And here, also, I think all participants should be responsible for their own sexual and reproductive health. And with even greater diligence and care, actually.
A pregnancy occurring in this situation is the womans responsibilty. <shrug> Who else's can it be, if you don't know who's it is? In the instance of multiple, faceless partners then...???? ...it's on her...

I'm rather confused by the question, though. It seems you are opting to use scenarios of extreme or unusual cases to avoid something which is a major issue and problem for many, many honest and ordinary woman and children - and men.

Buddrow_Wilson

Luna, even if I were to accept your side completely, no effort on earth will force a man to be a good father. It will come down to his personality and choices. I believe a woman is wise to realize this and act accordingly. If the man flees, the woman is stuck with the burden. If the both flee from each other, the woman is stuck with the burden. If the woman flees she is still stuck with the burden hehe. Thats basically the point of my last post. I am just not convinced that any amount of legislation will make a significant change here, and the legislation may in fact be unwarranted.

If you remember my original post, my views are not concrete here, I'm just trying to talk through my initial instinct on the subject. I have actually softened on it somewhat.

lunachick

Same with women.

Buddrow, I'm sure you're a nice guy an' all, but this statement smacks of the myths and good/evil, virgin/whore dichotomies surrounding women. We're seductresses, cheating thieves, murdresses, leeches...and yet so wise. *sigh*

That does tend to usually be the case - but that has a degree of social conditioning to it. I know of several single fathers who are doing admirably. I know of a couple of women who have abandoned their children, leaving them with their fathers. A friend of mine has single-handedly raised his son, mostly on government welfare in the early days, since Tom was about 16 days old. He didn't have much of a choice in the matter. His girlfriend never "bonded" with the child after birth and left him to babysit. She never came back - left for Australia with her new boyfriend. I know a couple of single fathers who actually took their kids away from their mothers because of the mum's inability to cope, and the dads had enough concern to get their children and do it themselves. When the kids were young, that meant quitting fulltime work. But then perhaps NZ is a more progressive society that the US. <shrug>

Legislation is essential in the same way legislation is essential in many social/civil arenas. But legislation isn't all that is essential!

I know.

Derec

Why is the man not entitled to be let off easy while the woman is? After all she can abort, give the child up for adoption or just leave it at the doors of an orphanage.

I am for equal rights for both parents.

Quote:

The bottom line is, people know (or should know) how children are made, and any man who wants to be sure he isn't a father can take the appropriate steps.

Same goes for women, yet women are the only ones that can absolve themselves from any responsibility whatsoever.

Quote:

If he is unwilling to take those steps, then it is his own fault if he becomes a father. He chose to do what he did, and cannot reasonably blame anyone else for his actions.

Same goes for the woman, so why can she decide that a child is to be given up for adoption and he can't?

UMoC

Derec

In many cases the courts do not accept a negative result of a paternity test - men have to pay regardless.

And also Loren quotes a case where a man was a sperm donor and was forced to pay child support. Both cases where laws need to be amended.

Maybe it is time for a masculinism movement.

UMoC

Pyrrho

The point of the law is to help even up the responsibility. Yet you want to make women totally responsible, and make the men have very minimal responsibility, and have suggested that that is somehow fair.

As for the orgies, that makes me think of Epicurus and what he had to say about how one should conduct one's life. I'll give a hint to everyone who knows nothing about him, he would not tell you to not be a participant in an orgy because some sky-god is going to hit you with a bolt of lightning, but because of the very real possibilities regarding the outcome. Here are a couple of links:

http://www.atomic-swerve.net/tpg/

http://www.epicurus.net/