scigirl

Thanks for that thoughtful reply, Neil. I totally agree with you about how it's not good to label people as "gay" or "straight." Forgive me if I sound vulgar here, but I really don't want people defining me as a person based on what types of anatomy my vagina encounters! There are three people on this earth who should be concerned with my vagina - me, my boyfriend, and my gynecologist. Everyone else - it's NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!!!!

scigirl

Edited to add - this rant is due to the fact that many homophobes tend to think about homosexuality as purely being a sex act, rather than seeing homosexuals as lovers, fathers, people who go to work, etc. . .

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: scigirl ]</p>

Oolon Colluphid

There’s only one little fly in your ointment there David: homosexuality is not a moral choice, and so cannot be a sin. It is caused by two bursts of hormones, one in the womb and one at puberty. Whether that counts as genetic or environmental is irrelevant; what matters is that homosexuals have no more control over their sexual preference than tall people have over their height.

Also, there are countless examples of homosexuality in other animals, so don’t try arguing that it’s against nature.

Since there is no moral choice about the proclivity, on what grounds do you think the actual act should be a sin? And if no harm is caused to anyone else, whose business is it but the participants’?

TTFN, Oolon

Ales

Imagine a country where black men are granted the same rights as white men but the majority of population believes that when black men have sexual partners it immoral. Than it is found that 20-40% of the black men attempt suicide during their lifetime and also that the number of people who believe a sexual relation of a black man is immoral correlates with the number of attempted suicides. Such country should either promote that the value of life of a black man is far less than the value of the freedom to promote racism or try legislatively to ban the organizations that spread the belief that sexual relation of a black man is immoral. I saw several studies that indicate that much the same is true for homosexuals but legislators seem to be reluctant to ban churches or at least try to weaken their obnoxious influence by making marriage for homosexuals possible.

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Ales ]</p>

FreeToThink

Does Christianity promote gay and lesbian bigotry?

ABSOLUTELY

There are some decent, kind, open minded Christians who recognize the hateful ramblings of the Bible for the bronze age morality they represent. But these Christians are few and far between.

However, that being said, we cannot fight Christianity to change their minds. We must persuade them, that compassion and kindness is the better way. We must educate them about gays and lesbians and show them that we are just as normal as they are.

GeoTheo

Sci girl:
I'm a better person than you. I'm not only tolerant of gays I'm tolerant of pedophiles necrophiliacs, the incestuous and people who have sex with animals.
Now, bear with me, I am just trying to make a point here. But these are generally sexual practices still held by society at large to be morally repugnant. Or if not morally, at least physically unpleasant. These, with the exception of the dead people, can all be consensual.
I have a moral system, based on my beliefs derived from religious doctrines that tells me that all of these practices are wrong.
Are you in favor of all of these practices( besides necrophilia) becoming mainstream?
If not what reason do you have for being so judgemental? Cannot a human and a dog or a human and a sheep share a loving relationship consumated with sex?
An adult and a child? Why should you exclude a child from the ability to choose? Could a child not have consensual sex with an adult of his or her choice?
Perhaps these relationships could be monagamous?

Radcliffe Emerson

I've read the bible all the way through, and yes it does promote bigotry of gays and lesbians. It states in several places that men and women lying with their own kind are an abomination to the Lord. It says homosexuals or sodomists will be cast into the lake of fire.
From that, I say the answer is definitely YES IT DOES.

Ales

I know that to ban churches would be counterproductive. But as I read the threads here it seems that theists are “incurably religious”(Thomas Edison) and so it seems to be better to help homophiles as e.g. secular web does.

Godless Dave

GeoTheo, animals and corpses certainly can't give consent. Young children can't really give consent to an adult either (hence "age of consent" laws) - there is a power relationship between an adult and child that makes real consent impossible. Adult gays and lesbians having consensual sex with other adults is qualitatively different than adults having sex with children, animals, or corpses.

GeoTheo

Oolon,
I don't mean this as an insult, But are you a homosexual? If not than how do you know if it is a matter of choice or not? Even if you are you can't speak for all homosexuals can you? Perhaps you have experiential knowlwdge in your case that causes you to put a biological explanation as its cause. Could that be in any way related to the fact that you are a biologist and explain most things with biology?
Are people born to be bisexual as well?
I think I am on safe ground(although I can't speak for all) that orgasms are pleasurable for everyone. So why would having an orgasm during homosexual sex not be pleasurable? Since there are plenty of people in prison who go in heterosexually oriented and while inside, engage in homosexual sex, I think sexual behavior can have a broad range.
I have even read about people who were once heterosexuals, experienced homosexual sex in prison and after that point preferred it. They preferred the company of men and liked really rough sex.
Here's another angle:
I used to work with a bunch of roofers. They were some rough characters. They joked derrisively about homosexuality all the time. I have found factory workers the same way. These were not born again Christians. These were smoking drinking bar room brawlers. Big guys with beer guts, constantly spitting tobacco. I think they would be a good subject for a study in anthropology. Lots of dominance behavior and body language going on there. Showing masculinity was very important in these social groups.
I had one tell me once that he knew a Guy who told him the best blowjob he ever got was from a Guy.
He said he didn't ever want to find out.
He said "I'd try anything once except homosexuality!"
These Guys are masculine by conscious choice. As masculine as they can be or portray them selves to be. Why could a man not choose to be femminine?
I wouldn't know myself but perhaps homosexual sex would be more pleasurable. who would have a better handle on how to cause pleasure in a man or a womans body if not another of the same sex?
I think there is imprinting involved and many other factors.
I predict that as homosexuality becomes more accepted you will see more and more converts and that the population will drop.

NeilUnreal

I appreciate and understand this view of the problem. However, I don’t think you can effectively legislate or enforce tolerance – suppression is not a cure. If I allow others to define my self worth, I’ll always have a problem regardless of the views of others, because some bigot somewhere will always hate me. The key I think is to define your self worth in terms of those whose opinions you respect, while simultaneously learning what constitutes an opinion worthy of respect.* I’m not saying this is an easy or neat path to a perfect society, I just think it’s a good foundation for any long-term improvement to society. I do believe the law should free people from the consequences of bigotry where it impinges on their safety, legal rights, and economic opportunities. What I don't want is the law meddling in my psyche either for good or for ill.

The problem is, all these other things involve at least one partner who is unable to give informed, mature consent. That’s one moral difference, regardless of one’s views on sexual behavior between consenting adults.

-Neil

p.s. via edit: Godless Dave makes similar points -- our posts crossed in the ether.


*Emma by Jane Austen is a great examination of this idea through fiction.

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: NeilUnreal ]</p>