7thangel

Indeed!

Didn't I tell you that this will end up to argument about the existence of Evil? So lets go straight to the main point, and let us not waist time. My argument is that evil is necessary for us to have wisdom. What is moral without wisdom?

7thangel

Yes, I profess that God is the creator of "all" things, visible and "invisible." All alone this is what the Bible wants us to believe.

What complicates this belief is that it makes God also the creator of evil. Well that is what Isaiah 45:7 says: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Even Colosians 1:16 said, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" This is a power of God that is limited by most of Christians. So they have the hard time convincing you of their arguments about the godhead. Adding even the literal existence of hell, the more it persuade you to be against them.

I find it plain that it is necessary that evil should exist for us to have wisdom, and to know God itself as the creator of all things. And that as always been quoted by Christians, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Without evil to exist, it is impossible to appreciate the godhead.

The common mistake presumed by theists and atheists alike is that they value man as having free will. Unfortunately, even the very wisdom that makes us to will is not even under our control. Presuming man has free will is one reason why Christianity were prophesied to suffer apostasy. If man really has free will, then God will be unjust unto others, who freely want to obey Him, to be denied of wisdom and then know Him. These expereinced good and evil around us were supposed to be, for us, a testimony that God is the creator of "all" things, good and evill. But this is denied itself by majority of christians, so they fell to apostasy. And their doctrines follow as a witness of their ignorance of God, having doctrines that promotes confusion.

Wait, what is your say so far?

Philosoft

Well, I have an issue with this:I don't find it plain, at all. I find that you have an unsupported premise. Obviously, if God exists, wisdom can also exist, must exist, without evil actions being done. Now, the burden of proof is yours to show why humans cannot also have wisdom sans evil.

HRG

"Right" and "wrong" do not depend on the laws of nature (which are descriptive, not prescriptive), but on intelligent beings defining some actions as "right" and others as "wrong"
I'm afraid you are committing a well-known fallacy: the attempt to derive a prescriptive statement (an "ought") from a descriptive statement (an "is"). IOW, you smuggle the word "should" into your argument, which is fallacious. People will sometimes fall from tall cliffs under the influence of gravity; this doesn't mean that they should be pushed off the cliffs.
Why, actually ? Both are relationships between two different individuals: sentient, self-aware, intelligent and volitional.

Regards,
HRG.

keyser_soze

Evil is necessary for wisdom? What kind of BS is that. I don't need evil to live life in a wise OR moral way? Do you? If god IS responsible for the little child molestors in the world, then I would quite enjoy cutting his throat right along with theirs. Batter up! I have 0 tolerance for predators, but you say they are necessary for us to be wise? Tell that to the little 5 year old girl that is being butchered following her ordeal at the hands of some sick fuck! Tell her parents, "it's gods will". [inappropriate comments deleted - Philosoft]

{keyser_sose, though it is often not possible to be emotionally divorced from one's argument, please try to avoid making unnecessarily inflammatory remarks. Such commentary usually serves only to disrupt the thread. Thank you. ~Philo}

7thangel

I missed to point out that there is a time where there will be eternal peace. And I believe, without wisdom, such eternal peace could not be achieved. There is a process for us to gain wisdom, that is we should have a knowledge of good and evil first.

I understand what you are saying here. The same way when Jesus Christ offered himself on the cross. I asked a lot of times why should Jesus Christ, a future promised King, should suffer, worst give his life. But what I came up that gave me peace is the understanding of such events. It gave me understanding of my relationship unto God, that I am a mere dust and given an existence of being to be thankful of. We should widen our scope of understanding things, else I will surely understand why you fail to understand me.

By the way, I would accept if you would rather call me insane, lunatic, or psychotic. But for you to say the magic four letter word, I really am convinced that you lack wisdom yourself.

7thangel

Well, wisdom requires knowledge of good and evil. Man without experiencing good and evil, cannot have knowledge of such. And without knowledge of good and evil, man cannot have wisdom. Thus reason why I am convinced that it really was a necessity that God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden.

Wisdom is the use of knowledge to meet a good end. And to my understanding, it does not necessarily have to follow that doing good alone could achieve that which ends as good. Ex. Teaching our children to be better children, on which, we take some action that is physically or emotionally bad, like grounding them. And as our children grow, and gain themselves of wisdom, they learn to understand themselves that the very rules we used on them to become better children does not necessarily mean that it will be applicable to their own children's growth. The same way we applied wisdom unto their growth.

Let me also put it this way, the bible says, "the FEAR of the lord is the beginning of wisdom." Fear is evil, yet it is necessary for us to have wisdom. It does not mean that fear will remain, or need to perpetually exist, but that it is required for us to have wisdom. After gaining wisdom we lose fear, though we be avoiding ourselves to be on the state of fear.

Bear with me if I used some bible verses. Am I making sense unto you?

7thangel

Does the intelligent beings speaks of outside of nature? Does the intellect exists outside the realm of nature? To my understanding, the "prescription" is directly influenced by nature. Please bear with me if I may have misused the right terms, or words. I may be misunderstanding you.

There is a fallacy indeed, because if God created all things, there should be "no observer" that exists. And in that case, I speak as an observer. If God is the only being by which all things exist, then the word "should, or could," is inappropriate to apply of His actions.

The implication of God-man relationship is that God directly gives the sentience, self-awareness, intelligence and volition of man.

BTW, I presumed you are the same HRG from CARM, nice to hear from you.

keyser_soze

I stand by what I said. If your god believes that allowing humans to be tortured, raped, and killed, for me to acquire wisdom, he has NO claim to any throne. I am a lowly human, but I damned sure can come up with a better system than that.

Magic wand*BAM* , omnisicient!

Me: Everyone is Healed! (benny hinn style of course)
*BAM* the universe is calm and happy.


See how easy that is? No complicated schemes calculating time and genetics so that I can get a Dr. Evil version of save the humans....I just wave my magic wand. Isn't that much easier? No killing or suffering of billions. No destroyed planet, nothing. Everyone, elect me your next imaginary god, and I promise to bring a new form of government, a democratic, a free, a truly enlightened age of man! I promise, NO NEW TAXES(or blood sacrifices, hey I'm a decent joe....I don't need that crap).

BioBeing

So by this line of reasoning, NO athesist can ever expect to be born again into God, correct?