Freethought & Rationalism Archive

HoosierGuy28 · 10-22-2002, 01:56 PM

Mageth,

Quote:

So either Jesus was wrong in his prophecy or one must assume there's an error in Jonah's plain statement that he was in the fish for three days and three nights. Or else Jesus "cheated" using the exception you describe so he could cut his time "in the earth" in half.

I have studied this topic thoroughly. The use in the scripture is clearly an idiom. I have gave you several evidences for this.

1. The example in Esther (There are also other examples in the Bible with this same useage)
2. I personally checked with a commentary that supported that it was being used as a figure of speech. (I also needed to get further clarification)
3. I gave you a reference to a book which specifically dealt with that subject and it:
a. Gave examples of a similar use today in British criminal courts.
b. Gave a reference to The Jewish commentary of the Law, the Talmud, which supported the same useage.
c. Gave a reference to Robertson Anderson, who also confirms this in one of his books.
d. Offers additional support within the book.
4. I personally, without mentioning my previous findings, consulted a professor at my university that teaches the Hebrew language, and he clearly stated that it was being used as an idiom.

Concerning Jonah, it was likely used as an idiom too and would be justified within the Hebrew language.

Joel

HoosierGuy28 · 10-22-2002, 02:15 PM

Perchance,

Thanks for the question. I apologize for taking so long to respond.

Quote:

Do you think the world would be better if everyone became a Christian?

Sure, if everybody was sincere about it. The thing is, someone becoming a Christian isn't an end, it's a beginning, and even after someone becomes a Christians, they still need to follow the Word of God. Someone becoming Christian does not prevent them from doing wrong. I'm sure you've noticed that even Christians can be notorious for causing divisions amongst themselves. Personally, I don't claim to be part of any denomination, I just simply refer to myself as a Christian.

Thanks for the question. I thought it was a very good one.

Joel

HoosierGuy28 · 10-22-2002, 02:22 PM

K,

Quote:

Then what are you doing to make sure you're doing what Allah and Vishnu want you to do? What have you offered to Zeus and Odin? Have you really not disregarded these? How about a flat earth? Or an earth orbitting sun? What about the idea that the earth is attached to the back of a tortoise?

Does it make sense to accept all these things without any real proof?

I will gladly look at any proof you feel you have concerning the existence of Zeus, Odin, etc. Also, if you believe the earth is flat and think you have legitimate evidence to support this, then I will be fair and view your evidence.

Joel

Mageth · 10-22-2002, 02:32 PM

So I take it, then, that "three days and three nights" doesn't actually mean three days and three nights in the bible (it could be 24 hours and 2 seconds under this "idiom" rule

).

That makes a nice riddle. "I arrived at my friend's house at 12:59 pm on Friday, stayed until 1:01 pm on Sunday, yet I spent three days and three nights there. How did I do this?"

Answer: I'm a biblical literalist, 'kay? Three days and three nights is an idiom!

If "three days and three nights" in the bible doesn't actually mean three days and three nights, how can I trust other things in the bible to mean what they say? What else in the bible is just an "idiom"? Creation? Flood? Virgin birth? Sin? Ressurection? Heaven? God?

It appears to me that, using the "idiom" logic, Jesus "cheated" so he could stay in the grave for @36 hours rather than 72.

Mageth · 10-22-2002, 02:33 PM

I will gladly look at any proof you feel you have concerning the existence of Zeus, Odin, etc.

Do you have "proof" of the Christian God?

Mageth · 10-22-2002, 02:39 PM

Concerning Jonah, it was likely used as an idiom too and would be justified within the Hebrew language.

There's absolutely no indication that the usage in Jonah is an idiom. Without indication otherwise, one must interpret the text plainly as what is written.

christ-on-a-stick · 10-22-2002, 02:43 PM

Buffman wrote -

Quote:

No amount of studying is useful if the student is already convinced that they have all the answers. Isn't that what you just inferred? That your edition of the Judeo-Christian Bible has all the accurate answers therefore any other book must be in error if it disagrees with your book?

I would very much like to see you address this, Joel.

I personally have never met a Christian who went about the task of methodically investigating all of the religions, not assuming any of them to be true from the outset, critically examined them all using the same criteria and ended up "picking" Christianity and discarding the others based on the evidence. Has anyone else? I am quite seriously wondering that.

HelenM · 10-22-2002, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick:
<strong>I personally have never met a Christian who went about the task of methodically investigating all of the religions, not assuming any of them to be true from the outset, critically examined them all using the same criteria and ended up "picking" Christianity and discarding the others based on the evidence. Has anyone else? I am quite seriously wondering that.</strong>

I haven't met him but I've heard a tape of him speaking and so I know that Hugh Ross of <a href="http://www.reasons.org/" target="_blank">Reasons To Believe</a> ministry says he spent two years doing that and ended up choosing Christianity and discarding the rest based on the evidence.

take care
Helen

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>

HoosierGuy28 · 10-22-2002, 02:56 PM

Buffman

Quote:

You can study, study, and study some more and still not be able to determine fact from fiction if you are only studying one book as your final authority on the natural world. Quite simply, how do you prove that your one book is not myth and superstition? I have attempted to assist you in that proof by asking you to tell me how your book came into physical being. Who were the real world editors (Gods) that decided what it would/would not contain?

I study one book as a foundation and I build on that foundation, many times using other books. If one wishes to determine the Word of God as being fact or fiction, all one needs to do is study it with an open-mind and see what it has to say. I have no doubts whatsoever that the Bible is the Word of God. I don't need any additional proof because personal experience has already shown that to be true.

[quote]When you claim that you "see no reason not to believe in anything the Bible has to say," aren't you really saying that you do have reason to discount the things that other books say that are in apposition to the words in your book? If so, upon what critical reasoning logic do you take such a position? The only one that I can find is "blind faith" since you have no verifiable evidence to support your claim.

No amount of studying is useful if the student is already convinced that they have all the answers. Isn't that what you just inferred? That your edition of the Judeo-Christian Bible has all the accurate answers therefore any other book must be in error if it disagrees with your book?QUOTE]

My faith is far from blind. I also do not rely totally on the Bible for gaining knowledge, but it is the foundation for those things that I do learn. I also read many other books and deal with many different perspectives on things, but if something is in opposition to God's Word, then I see no reason to accept it as fact. Also, I never said I had "all the answers", but I do have a solid foundation for searching for answers.

Quote:

But what methodology do you use to make the determination that yours is right and the others are wrong? Are you contending that only your book has all the facts, all the truth, about the natural world? That the Sun actually stood still regardless of what the Physics books say would happen if it did?

Something that is supernatural is not subject to natural laws. God is beyond what any physics books say, and if God can create the universe, then it is reasonable to assume that God can also maintain it. Now does this mean that physics books aren't useful? Of course not! I would encourage people to study the various branches of science, but these things should not be in conflict with God.

Joel

HoosierGuy28 · 10-22-2002, 03:10 PM

Mageth,

I don't see what problem you have with the Bible using figures of speech. If it's consistent with the Hebrew culture at that time, then there is no reason to discredit it. When reading any literature, it is wise to read it in the context in which it was originally written or you will be less likely to get the message.

Quote:

If "three days and three nights" in the bible doesn't actually mean three days and three nights, how can I trust other things in the bible to mean what they say? What else in the bible is just an "idiom"? Creation? Flood? Virgin birth? Sin? Ressurection? Heaven? God?

Now that question is rather ridiculous. The idiom we're discussing is an established idiom that was commonly used by the Hebrew people. If you feel you have a reasonable argument, then you should be able to show that it wasn't an idiom commonly used. I have shown several evidences that it was, in fact, a common and acceptable use of an idiom.

Joel

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10-22-2002, 02:32 PM	#104
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	So I take it, then, that "three days and three nights" doesn't actually mean three days and three nights in the bible (it could be 24 hours and 2 seconds under this "idiom" rule ). That makes a nice riddle. "I arrived at my friend's house at 12:59 pm on Friday, stayed until 1:01 pm on Sunday, yet I spent three days and three nights there. How did I do this?" Answer: I'm a biblical literalist, 'kay? Three days and three nights is an idiom! If "three days and three nights" in the bible doesn't actually mean three days and three nights, how can I trust other things in the bible to mean what they say? What else in the bible is just an "idiom"? Creation? Flood? Virgin birth? Sin? Ressurection? Heaven? God? It appears to me that, using the "idiom" logic, Jesus "cheated" so he could stay in the grave for @36 hours rather than 72.

10-22-2002, 02:33 PM	#105
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I will gladly look at any proof you feel you have concerning the existence of Zeus, Odin, etc. Do you have "proof" of the Christian God?

10-22-2002, 02:39 PM	#106
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Concerning Jonah, it was likely used as an idiom too and would be justified within the Hebrew language. There's absolutely no indication that the usage in Jonah is an idiom. Without indication otherwise, one must interpret the text plainly as what is written.

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