David M. Payne

Yep, all wrapped up in one word.

David

Ut

David,

I'm going off for the weekend.

I'll give a little thought to your post and I'll come back to you later.

Some other things:

1) I don't want to protect anything from secularism and science. I want to protect secularism and science from religion. Which means religion is all fine until it begins to teach biology or significantly breach separation of church and state. The "significantly" bit means I don't see the word "God" being part of Canada's Constitution as being something to worry about.

2) In response to:

You are right, we must have the smallest number of persons support, passively or actively, organizations of the Al-Qaeda's ilk. The ways to do this are:

1) Convince Muslims to become apostates.
2) Convince Muslims to be nominal Muslims, where Islam become closer to cultural customs than religious beliefs.
3) Convince Muslims to be moderates who do not seek to impose Islams on others
4) Convince Muslims to not attempt anything outside the borders of their Muslim country.

Of course, these ways are not mutually exclusive (we can convince some Muslims to become apostates and some other to become moderates). In the long run, we should aim for 1) and 2) (with 2) being the most realistic goal IMO). But I don't really know what is the best way to go at it in the short run

Shake

Serious question here: can someone remind me who was behind the first WTC bombing back in '93? Were they linked to Osama bin Laden, al-Qaeda, or not? This should have been a warning sign to us. Instead we laughed it off. "Ha! They tried to bring down the WTC!" We underestimated how far they would go to topple a symbol of American strength, and thousands paid for it with their lives. We still pay for it with restricted civil liberties and our freedom limited due to fear.

I wasn't completely against Gulf War II. I just didn't think the timing was good. Bush utilized the emotional reaction he knew he'd get from revisiting the 9/11 incidents to justify the attack on Iraq. He further knew that invoking God and a claim that we were ridding the world of "evil" (justified or not), would prompt a strong emotional (not rational) response from the American public which would make detractors seem un-patriotic.

Bush may not be an Einstein, but he's no Forrest Gump either.

David, your account of your time in Vietnam was moving to say the least. (My father-in-law served around the same time as you (IIRC), and like you, came back worse for the wear.) I hope it gets read by people who, like myself, have had the fortune not to have had to witness death first-hand as you have. The horrors of war seem to be a lesson that has to be relearned by each generation to remind us that war is indeed horrible, and not the glorious experience that Hollywood has given us.

John Hancock

Shake

Were they linked to Osama bin Laden, al-Qaeda, or not? This should have been a warning sign to us. Instead we laughed it off

Yes the attack was linked ObL and the Republican controled Congress was more interested in licking cum spots from a blue dress so they accused Clinton of "wagging the dog" when he suggested military action and was thus prevented from doing more than launching a coupla cruise missiles.

Martin

David M. Payne

I've been busy with a new woman in my life, a Christian who like me and hates my writing, so I've not been here for a few days. I think she wants to save me. I know I want to help her see the light on the God/religion biz, so we'll see how it turns out. She's nice though, and it's nice to get a little positive response for the most part in my love life for a change. I've also had trouble with a plugged ear. (Tip, use repeated Hydrogen Peroxide and a hot cloth until you get it all out. If that fails go to the doctor.)

Shake, I'm no fan of Shrub myself, but he was right about the danger of Saddam long term I do believe. As the horror of his regime (Saddam's not Bush) come to light we did the right thing. But Bush's constant references to God/religion as he spurs on the faithful may well give credence to Osama's call to the Islamic faithful to fight the crusaders.
(This religious crap of Bush's was the impetus for Utopia-612. Sometimes I write threads, sometimes I say what I want to with my tales, its all the same thing to me, but the stories are a little more entertaining to do, even if some "freethinkers" here get annoyed by them. )

I have had several Vets thank me for the essay you posted the link to above. I guess I've said something that a lot of vets feel about the horror of war, but had not been able to articulate. It was a hard piece for me to write, it brings back memories that are not good for me for sure, but if it helps some of you get more of a feel for the horror of war then it was worth the effort.

David

David M. Payne

Ut, This is going to be a long hard struggle to free humanity from the yolk of religious domination, no doubt about that. I have some hope that if humanity lasts long enough, the technology of the Internet will have a big impact on bringing a little enlightenment to the world of religious superstition and its slaves. I just worry that the fundies will be more than happy to destroy us all to prevent the death of the God/religion biz. This is why I hate the way Bush is pushing religion, and fear the Islamic zelts will gain enough political/military power worldwide to spark a real apocalypse with the Jews and Christians.

David