Gurdur

And liking and respecting Panta Pei a great deal is, I believe, self-explanatory.

Atheism's best when combined with a sense of humor !

Samhain

Gurdur, I've read this thread and while I do hold that your stance here seems perfectly valid and I do agree with you wholeheartedly for the most part, the point below, in particular, has bothered me much. I want you to know that I'm just trying to express my feelings and I'm not trying to be critical of this in anyway (as I don't want to bring down the Wrath at least not right now in this thread), but I do hope that you see my concerns in my response.

Points well taken. I think we (for the most part), as atheists, wish to try and establish a tolerance that doesn't seem very prevalent around SecWeb for real life and in these forums. The bigotry worries me as well, and I hope that you will honestly believe me when I say that, though I will admit there have been occasions in which I have fallen victim to arrogance myself.

The problem that I see with these statements is that, for me, personally, they seem to miss the point of where we have been left thus far in the face of the theistic majority. Of course, appearances must be kept, I feel, and they should be more than just "appearances" but that which we live by so that we do not make hypocrites of ourselves. As we can see in many of the "upper" forums, the purposes of SecWeb would seem to extend greatly into the regions of "defense" for our views as atheists and/or humanists. I do not wish to see humanism and/or atheism as some kind of viable alternative to theism (correct me if I misunderstood, but the statements above presented such to me), but as a "correct" (sorry, it's for lack of a better word, I do not attempt to make moral judgements on this matter, but it's late and my vocabulary is lacking from lack of sleep) choice for all people if they wish to help to perpetuate liberty, tolerance, and existence. I do not mean to say that these things cannot be realized through theism, but only that in many theistic circles (particularly Abrahmamic) it would seem that many would wish to perpetuate only limited amounts of these things, and even restrict in certain areas. I do not pretend to stand on some moral high ground, as we all know even a lot of atheists have a large problem with tolerance (and even some with liberty ), but I do think that humanism gives us the best structure or frame to work in in order for us to establish that tolerance and liberty, and I'd rather see humanism as the "correct" choice rather than just an equal alternative.

Sephiroth

Thanks, you rock as well .

Panta Pei

Hey, thanks, Gurdur...


...now, c'mon, make poses with me!

Secular Pinoy

Sigh! It seems that Gurdur will never read my original post charitably, or even fairly. I feel that my initial post was never abusive or even confrontational. It saddens me that he had twised my post beyond its original meaning and labelled me as an unprovoked attacker. I labored to show in my second post that I never meant ill, and that I really believe that theist gal is sincere in her former nonbelief and current reconversion. Now I know why I rarely go to this forum. Sigh!

Gurdur

Samhain,

I am writing a huge response to al of this, plus an entirely new thread; it will take me time, but I will do it


(plus I'm still writing out a new thread for you and Excreationist, yes)

I see your concerns, I will answer them fully, openly and honestly.

I'm <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=46&t=000743" target="_blank">even taking a long holiday from my favourite sport of beating up people who want to beat other people up in the Political Discussions forum</a> to dedicate myself to this matter, since it strikes to the heart of what SecWeb is, what I would like it to be, what atheism, agnosticism, fideism, pantheism and (oh god the list goes on) are,

so please be patient with me.

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Gurdur ]</p>

HelenM

I would think Gurdur would agree heartily with you that atheism should be accepted because it's correct, first and foremost.

I didn't understand him to be saying anything that would contradict that. I think he was simply focusing on something else - i.e. the behavior of atheists. I think he was saying that he didn't want atheism to appear to be a view held predominantly by people whose behavior is questionable.

I hope he will correct me if I'm wrong. (Including if he is actually a she! )

love
Helen

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]</p>

Gurdur

Oh come on, man, I simply described how your post looked, and why I interpreted it the way I did. I did not insist that my interpretation was right.
I only pointed out in my second answer to you that it could be interpreted as being confrontational and condemnatory.
*sigh*
I take care to answer you, and point out the differences between intent and appearance, and you label me as twisting your post.
Man, we're not on the same wave-length, are we ?

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Gurdur ]</p>

Gurdur

Only if I have the energy and the savage inclination at the time, since my conversations with you tend to be ...... ah ..... ah ...... inconclusive and somehow not completely satisfying to myself. Possibly my fault.

Anyway, stick around for the resultant discussion, since I am really going to go to town on this whole topic in a big way.
Naw, I'll leave you guessing on that one, since it's not terribly essential, IMHO.

_________________

And that all is my last post on this thread till I have prepared my long, long posts for this.

I beg for patience from lurkers.

HelenM

Originally posted by Gurdur:

HelenSL: I hope he will correct me if I'm wrong.

Gurdur nly if I have the energy and the savage inclination at the time, since my conversations with you tend to be ...... ah ..... ah ...... inconclusive and somehow not completely satisfying to myself. Possibly my fault.

Thank you for putting that so - graciously.

The power lies within you to adjust your expectations to the reality of what I am going to say and not say, here. To accept me the way I am.

I thought that's what atheists believe in - as it were

But it's your choice. And I respect that it is.

Anyway, stick around for the resultant discussion, since I am really going to go to town on this whole topic in a big way.

One of the reasons I started posting here was in the hope I could persuade atheists (non-theists, maybe I should say; I'm not sure) that they serve their cause better by behaving well, than by not.

I strongly believe in the power of role-modelling and leading by example. I am very frustrated by those of any belief system - or nonbelief system - who tell others how to behave and then don't live by their own standards. But I also realize I am probably incapable of living up to my own standards; that I violate them every day. (And now I can't even say I'm trying to, because of Yoda! )

Anyway, if your topic is anything to do with atheist behavior I'll be very interested to read your comments. In fact, I expect I will be, regardless [on this thread] .

I beg for patience from lurkers.

So, the rest of us can be impatient, then?

love
Helen

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]</p>