M87

Hi again HD,

Thanks for taking the time to post so much about what you feel/think about these things. It’s been interesting talking to (well, mostly listening to) you and the others. I’m afraid that I don’t have any useful advice for you, but I also wish you luck in your search.

One last point: about the whole science thing. You say that you don’t want to study nature (through science), but just to experience it. I always saw science as a way to extend our experience of nature, beyond what our human senses are capable of. For instance, I can only directly experience Venus as a particularly bright star in the sky. But through images sent back from probes and scientific analysis of other remote measurements I can know that it is an entire alien planet, shrouded by acidic clouds that keep it hotter than any of our deserts, etc, etc… It’s not direct experience, but to me, that knowledge is as powerfully moving as something that I can experience directly. I *was* going to ask you why it is that you only get that emotional charge from things that you can experience directly... But now I’ve realized that if you asked me why I also get such an emotional charge from things experienced indirectly, I probably couldn’t say. *Shrug* Each to his own then, I guess .

Oops, I lied – there was one more point I was curious about. It worries me a little that you “tolerate rationality as a necessary evil” and kind of seem willing to ignore it, if you dislike its conclusions enough. Like the issue of death and reincarnation. I can understand not liking the idea of eventual oblivion... I not terribly fond of that, myself. But I can’t understand making what seems to be a conscious decision to believe in reincarnation, because of that. Is that different from making a conscious decision to believe in personal gods, in spite of the lack of hard evidence in favor of their existence, just because one can’t stand the idea of a universe without them?

Heathen Dawn

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"Brewing my own" is to do a lot of work from scratch. But that doesn't bother me, no-one said it was going to be easy.

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Maybe meditating in the midst of nature can do the trick. I just wonder what can shift me out of the same old rut.

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Currently not possible; I'm single...

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I wish to avoid two extremes: the one is a hyper-scientific attitude like that of Richard Dawkins, who reduces the universe to a scenario of bleak meaninglessness; the other is a hyper-mystical attitude like that of Buddhism, which denounces the world completely. Somewhere between those two extremes lies the path I need. At first I thought Wicca was the middle road I desired, but it seems Wicca is too hyper-mystical for my taste.

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Might be. I always wonder how it could be if I were so busy being something that some anthropology major would write a thesis about my religion.

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I'm not looking for a mystical experience as a fantasy; I'm looking for something real and life-changing, a real initiation. I just wonder if there's a way to gain an initiation without denouncing the world like Buddhism insists on.

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I will. Seeing how just two books about Wicca have already wrought such a change in my life, it's obvious I have to read more books in order to find my path. I sometimes have an aversion towards books as a non-natural, monkish thing, but usually I don't let it interfere; I'm a bookworm and a nature-worshipper, and there's no contradiction between the two.

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I too have been attracted to paganism because I saw it as the bridge between naturalism and mysticism. However, as Kassiana said, it's not a non-theistic way, and so the bridge is not perfect. I thought Wicca was the perfect bridge, but now it seems not to be. That's why I'm in such a rough time: I've discovered that I haven't discovered what I thought was The Way.

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That's what I'm doing now - exploring. I often get tired of exploration and want to be settled, but currently I don't have a choice.

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No, it's no different. The point is you can only have so much of the harsh truth, and there comes a time (at least for me) when I have to set this all aside. In the past I used to delve a lot on the issue of the "blind, pitilessly indifferent natural universe of meaninglessness and no life after death", and after a few months of carrying about that all the time, I just went crazy. I can't wallow in negativity all the time. So if the reality is not inherently positive, then I should just create a new reality which is. I like the idea of creating one's own reality, even though it stands in contrast to rationality. Perhaps because it stands in contrast to rationality. Rationality used to be my flagship worldview in the past, but now I've demoted it to merely the thing that keeps me away from denouncing the world like Buddhism. I'm now a "rationalist in the small".

brighid

Heathen Dawn,

Let me just say that I am happy you are exploring things so fully You will find what suits you for the time being and if my experience is worth anything ... well, that will change too! I know you don't want some fantasy, but some real life experience .... is connectedness the proper term for what you are seeking?

I have a really difficult time meditating alone unless I am in a place where I know I won't be disturbed. I have not yet gotten to a level where I can simply sit anywhere and draw myself into a place of inner quietness. I envy those people who have that skill. I have found one meditation that really works for me and gives me that feeling of something more on a consistent basis. If you are interested, PM me and I will share.

Perhaps it's because we live in a modern society where it's so difficult to find uncorrupted nature, or even a totally quiet place to simply walk, sit or just be that we find such a longing to connect with nature on a more intimate level. Maybe that is why paganism has such an appeal to you and I (and others.) I know my hectic day spent dealing with computers and machines, the crackling of the servers in my office, driving to and fro in my car, the noise of traffic, the TV, etc. sometimes... well it wears at my being. I find a great need to escape from the noise and the impersonal nature of my field of work. Sometimes I just want to hike alone in the woods ... rarely do I do that because it just isn't safe.

I truly hope you find your "home brew" You will. You are young, you are intelligent, passionate and creative - heck even if you were old .. that wouldn't stop you. I have confidence in you.

Brighid

gsx1138

I'm brand spanking new here so try not to verbally rape me too quick. I have been struggling with the very same issues. I like the nature loving aspect and the ritual involved but I don't believe in the Gods and Goddesses as literal. I don't believe magick to be literal either so I'm kind of confused as to the direction I should take now.
I very much like the Secular Paganism idea and this is the first time I've ever even heard the term. I'll continue to look around at all the posts because as it stands Wicca/Paganism is the closest thing I've ever found that matches my own emotional belief structure. I'm very interested in how the the circle raising was changed to more of a sphere of meditation. Interesting stuff to say the least.

M87

Hi Heathen Dawn,

The point is you can only have so much of the harsh truth, and there comes a time (at least for me) when I have to set this all aside... I can’t wallow in negativity all the time.

I can understand that. Again, I definitely don’t like to dwell on the fact that I and everyone that I love will eventually die... I suppose I set that aside, in my way, by focusing on loving them now, getting the most out of my time with them while I have them, and trying not to think too much about our final farewells.

I do get a strange sense of peace from the idea that once I die, I won’t have to miss anyone or anything that I leave behind, or worry about what else I’m missing out on in life, because there won’t be any “I” to do so. I don’t think I could fully express why that makes me feel “better” about the whole thing, so I’m not surprised to find that not everyone feels that way.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about rationality and reincarnation. When I deconverted (or whatever) from paganism, my belief in reincarnation was the very last thing that I turned away from... It finally did feel like holding that belief was no different than holding a belief in gods. Since you don’t seem to want anything to do with gods, I was wondered if you would see that differently. Thanks for clarifying!

Veil of Fire

I take a more Taoistic approach to paganism.

Gods? Maybe.

What happens when we die? Do we go to some god-place? Ugh. The idea sparks a low-level hostility. There may or may not be concious dieties, but I'm almost postive there's some energy floating around out there, some big life thing that permeates everything. Is it concious? Not necessarily. And when I die, the life I'm utilizing right now goes back into the stream, and maybe pops up as someone else. Sounds reasonable to me.

Heathen Dawn

Wicca does appear to be the closest to what I'm looking for. However, it's not without its problems. I remember reading about pagan mystery cults in The Jesus Mysteries, and I didn't like it - the description of denouncing worldly affectations and dedicating oneself to enlightenment sounded too much like Buddhism. I can't stand Buddhism.

I believe that in Nature is the only true Mystery. Initiation is to be gained not by denouncing the natural realm, but attuning oneself to it in ways never done before. The trees and the stones hold awesome, uncommunicable secrets waiting to be discovered.

♥ and light.

Heathen Dawn

Hey, Veil of Fire, have you seen this website?

<a href="http://www.fluffbunnytrad.com" target="_blank">http://www.fluffbunnytrad.com</a>

It's a humourous satire website on the same vein as "Why Wiccans Suck".

Jesse

Heathen Dawn:
the description of denouncing worldly affectations and dedicating oneself to enlightenment sounded too much like Buddhism. I can't stand Buddhism.

I think you're misunderstanding Buddhism somewhat, it's not meant to be a world-denying philosophy, in fact the "middle way" is all about not going to the extremes of being a totally world-denying ascetic who thinks the phenomenal world is "illusion" on the one hand and also not being totally caught up in and attached to the pleasures & pains of this world on the other. As for freeing oneself from "desire" I have always understood that in terms of freeing oneself from the mental habits associated with desires, not the immediate pleasure in experiences. Animals can take pleasure in things but they don't have "desires" in the same way we do--they don't sit around pining for things they don't have, they don't compare their own lives to others and think "it's not fair", etc. If a dog loses a leg it just sort of smoothly adjusts to life as a three-legged dog, it doesn't even seem to realize that things could be different. Although the human ability to imagine other possibilities besides our immediate experience is useful in many ways, it can also lead to a lot of pointless suffering, and I think of Buddhist ideas about removing "desire" as trying to deal with that.

There was an interesting thread on Buddhism which dealt with some of these issues a while back, <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=13&t=000147" target="_blank">here</a>.

Veil of Fire

Heathen: Nifty! I'll check it out after class!