Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 05-20-2003, 12:26 PM

well, i believe santa claus exists because i want him to exist. What is this argument called, the Argument of Belief?

I call it the Tinkerbell argument. Believe really hard and clap your hands a bit and Tinkerbell will survive.

lpetrich · 05-20-2003, 02:10 PM

Furthermore, if one wishes to continue with analogies with human designers, one must conclude that the designers of living things are:

Multiple

Finite in capability

Fallible

Bubba · 05-20-2003, 02:16 PM

Seems that one could write a really good book about philosophy of design showing that most of the universe is actually a BAD design.

Bubba

Lobstrosity · 05-20-2003, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ
Simply deny their premise. It works great, especially if you point out that rivers display fractal patterns (provided you look at the right scale)--an intricate design. Yet, all it takes for them to occur is water flowing across dirt! No design their, but a pattern nonetheless. Since their premise is invalid, then their whole argument is invalid.

Or show them this

Look! Design without a designer! OMG, it's a miracle!

Mageth · 05-20-2003, 04:51 PM

Hey, wait a minute! God designs every snowflake! Keeps the old fart pretty busy, you know.

Kimpatsu · 05-20-2003, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bubba
Actually, I've run into several creationists who are much dumber in person than the ones we debate on the internet. I told one creationist that evolution was a "robust" theory...he told me that he didn't know what the word "robust" meant!

I can empathise totally with Bubba's problem here. In one debate on e-budo, I was asked to stop using "$10 words". I told my interlocutor to buy a dictionary.

Jimmy Higgins · 05-20-2003, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ
Simply deny their premise. It works great, especially if you point out that rivers display fractal patterns (provided you look at the right scale)--an intricate design. Yet, all it takes for them to occur is water flowing across dirt! No design their, but a pattern nonetheless. Since their premise is invalid, then their whole argument is invalid.

You got a link or source for the fractal river thing? I'd be very interested in that. I was talking with a math teacher in college and he was saying ferns grow in patterns of fractals. That is some weird stuff. Nature can be so cool like that. Oh wait, I'm worshiping the gift, not the god, DOH!

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ · 05-20-2003, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy Higgins
You got a link or source for the fractal river thing? I'd be very interested in that. I was talking with a math teacher in college and he was saying ferns grow in patterns of fractals. That is some weird stuff. Nature can be so cool like that. Oh wait, I'm worshiping the gift, not the god, DOH!

Outright, no. I was told this by a mathematician who studie them, however, at a physics lecture at the UW-Madison. They exhibit the main point--that they are self-similar (as are mountains), and that they really have infinite length--the more accurate the measurement, the longer the measurement. This is only anecdotal, though, so I don't have a good source on it.

Jimmy Higgins · 05-20-2003, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ
Outright, no. I was told this by a mathematician who studie them, however, at a physics lecture at the UW-Madison. They exhibit the main point--that they are self-similar (as are mountains), and that they really have infinite length--the more accurate the measurement, the longer the measurement. This is only anecdotal, though, so I don't have a good source on it.

You mean, I have to look it up? *sigh*

Oh, wait a minute, you heard that from a secular school, so according to some, it means nothing. Nevermind...

Mageth · 05-20-2003, 08:57 PM

Here's a book on fractal river basins:

Fractal River Basins: Chance and Self-Organization, by Ignacio Rodr�guez-Iturbe, Andrea Rinaldo

Contents
1. A view of river basins; 2. Fractal characteristics of river basins; 3. Multifractal characteristics of river basins; 4. Optimal channel networks: minimum energy and fractal structures; 5. Self-organized fractal river networks; 6. On landscape self-organization; 7. Geomorphological hydrologic response; 8. References.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-20-2003, 12:26 PM	#11
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	well, i believe santa claus exists because i want him to exist. What is this argument called, the Argument of Belief? I call it the Tinkerbell argument. Believe really hard and clap your hands a bit and Tinkerbell will survive.

05-20-2003, 02:10 PM	#12
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Furthermore, if one wishes to continue with analogies with human designers, one must conclude that the designers of living things are: Multiple Finite in capability Fallible

05-20-2003, 02:16 PM	#13
Bubba Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Orient, OH USA Posts: 1,501	Seems that one could write a really good book about philosophy of design showing that most of the universe is actually a BAD design. Bubba

05-20-2003, 04:51 PM	#15
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Hey, wait a minute! God designs every snowflake! Keeps the old fart pretty busy, you know.

05-20-2003, 08:57 PM	#20
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Here's a book on fractal river basins: Fractal River Basins: Chance and Self-Organization, by Ignacio Rodr�guez-Iturbe, Andrea Rinaldo Contents 1. A view of river basins; 2. Fractal characteristics of river basins; 3. Multifractal characteristics of river basins; 4. Optimal channel networks: minimum energy and fractal structures; 5. Self-organized fractal river networks; 6. On landscape self-organization; 7. Geomorphological hydrologic response; 8. References.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.