Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Biff the unclean · 12-12-2002, 02:44 PM

or people who are convinced that psychics have real powers and see no other alternative are close minded?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes.
All of the above, yes by definition.

I wouldn't say that they all are closed minded. Some are just very, very stupid and unbelievabley gullible.

[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: Biff the unclean ]

Amie · 12-12-2002, 02:55 PM

Hi Mageth

Quote:

With this broad definition of evidence, I would say that no one has ever believed anything without "evidence" of some kind.

what would be the "evidence" you are referring to be in a God belief when it is based in faith?

Quote:

Obviously some people have a much lower standard for substantiality than others. These people may hear of or witness a "miraculous" event and believe it is of supernatural origin without really questioning the evidence they have and seeking alternative explanations. These are the types of people who will say things like "I missed my plane and it crashed. It was a miracle! God was watching out for me!"

I agree with this statement. I would not say missing a plane and having that plane crashing would be a miracle, but I catch your drift...

Amie · 12-12-2002, 02:58 PM

Biff

Quote:

Yes.
All of the above, yes by definition.
I wouldn't say that they all are closed minded. Some are just very, very stupid and unbelievabley gullible.

why would someone believing in miracles be close minded in your eyes? do you think by dismissing miracles and NOT believing in them is close minded? after all both are opposite positions...

galiel · 12-12-2002, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie:
Biff

why would someone believing in miracles be close minded in your eyes? do you think by dismissing miracles and NOT believing in them is close minded? after all both are opposite positions...

One refuses to acknowledge the lack of confirming evidence, the vast number of debunked pseudo-miracles, the demonstrated magician's tricks that can appear miraculous, along with Occam's Razor. The other refuses to believe in something for which there is a complete lack of corroborated evidence, a vast number of debunked pseudo-miracles, demonstrated magician's tricks that prove that the apparently miraculous may not be, and accords with Occams' Razor.

The former is not open to the possibility that miracles do not exist. The latter is always open to the possibility, given credible proof, of an actual miracle.

That is why the former is close-minded and the latter is not.

Amie · 12-12-2002, 03:16 PM

Hi tronvillain

Quote:

Well, I might label anything incredible, improbable, or seeingly impossible as a "miracle" but the word itself would have religious significance to me. For a "miracle" to be good evidence for the existence of "the Christian God of the Bible" it would have to be an extremely involved miracle. It wouldn't be too difficult to convince me it was due to a godlike entity of some sort though.

Questions: if you witnessed a miracle at Lourdes or perhaps Fatima, what would you attribute that to if not God? the supernatural?
Do you think every question has an answer? that every occurrence has a logical, natural explanation?
I am just curious about your thoughts...
sincerely~
Amie

Biff the unclean · 12-12-2002, 03:24 PM

why would someone believing in miracles be close minded in your eyes?
Because you have turned your back on reality and embraced fantasy
do you think by dismissing miracles and NOT believing in them is close minded? after all both are opposite positions...
No more than it is closed minded not to believe in leprechauns.
To believe in miracles you must close your mind to all of Western knowledge. You must close your mind to science, you must close it to reason. You must abandon rational thought and embrace magic. It really is "an insult to the majesty of the real."

Do you think that the virtue of "being open minded" means believing any and all cock and bull stories that you hear? To be "open minded" means that you have the ability, when presented with new facts, to change your mind. It doesn't mean being gullible.

Do you believe in "psychics?"

Do you think that pieces of cardboard with pictures of wands and cups and guys in togas printed on them in four colors can tell the future?
Do you think that a couple of coke bottles melted down and cast in the shape of a ball can get in touch with the dead?
Do you think that the creases on your hand where it bends can tell the future? How about chicken entrails?

tronvillain · 12-12-2002, 04:31 PM

Biff the unclean:

Quote:

tronvillain my point is that if no one has ever seen a god or a godlike entity, and you saw a miracle why would you conclude that it came from something that you don't know exists? Seeing a miracle would only suggest that a miracle happened unless the miracle included the "godlike" entity.

Actually, most of the miracles I was envisioning did include the "godlike" entity, but even if they didn't I can think of a variety of phenomena for which the existence of a powerful godlike entity would be a perfectly good explanation, and if they occurred I would drastically revise my estimate of the probability of their existence upwards.

Amie:

Quote:

Questions: if you witnessed a miracle at Lourdes or perhaps Fatima, what would you attribute that to if not God? the supernatural?
Do you think every question has an answer? that every occurrence has a logical, natural explanation?
I am just curious about your thoughts...

If I witnessed something accurately described as a "miracle" at Fatima or Lourdes I would probably revise my estimate of the probability of the existence of God drastically upwards. Granted, I would do the same for many other hypotheses, but God would be doing a lot better than he is now. Of course, I do not think that any miracles have occurred at Fatima or Lourdes.

[ December 13, 2002: Message edited by: tronvillain ]

12-12-2002, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tronvillain:
If I witnessed something a "miracle" at Fatima or Lourdes I would probably revise my estimate of the probability of the existence of God drastically upwards. Granted, I would do the same for many other hypotheses, but God would be doing a lot better than he is now. Of course, I do not think that any miracles have occurred at Fatima or Lourdes.

If three little children convincing thousands of adults that their invisible friend is appearing to them is not a miracle, I don't know what is.

Amie · 12-12-2002, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean:
Because you have turned your back on reality and embraced fantasy

reality? really? I see that your perception has become your reality in this case...
believing in a few miracles is not turning ones back on outside"reality"

Quote:

To believe in miracles you must close your mind to all of Western knowledge.

oh boy...
just because one believes in some miracles does not mean they are closed off to knowledge of any kind Biff..

Quote:

You must close your mind to science, you must close it to reason. You must abandon rational thought and embrace magic. It really is "an insult to the majesty of the real."

I hardly think I close my mind to science I am a biology teacher...
miracles are not the same as magic dear...

Quote:

Do you think that the virtue of "being open minded" means believing any and all cock and bull stories that you hear?

Absolutely not...

Quote:

To be "open minded" means that you have the ability, when presented with new facts, to change your mind. It doesn't mean being gullible.

I know what it means Biff thank you for the definition...

Quote:

Do you believe in "psychics?"

I believe that some posess some "gift" it seems, some psychic ability however I most definitely could be wrong. I am only speaking from any experiences that I have had where people knew things before the event...however due to precognition or what not...
I think there are some things in this universe that we just don't have answers to..

Quote:

Do you think that pieces of cardboard with pictures of wands and cups and guys in togas printed on them in four colors can tell the future?

I guess I would have to see if what they predicted was accurate, then I could answer you...

Quote:

Do you think that a couple of coke bottles melted down and cast in the shape of a ball can get in touch with the dead?

No. I also dont think crayons left in a hot car melting into the shape of Jesus' face is a miracle either...

Quote:

Do you think that the creases on your hand where it bends can tell the future? How about chicken entrails?

No and No.

thebeave · 12-12-2002, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Synaesthesia:


If three little children convincing thousands of adults that their invisible friend is appearing to them is not a miracle, I don't know what is.

My Sarcasm-O-Meter just went off scale!

12-12-2002, 02:44 PM	#121
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	or people who are convinced that psychics have real powers and see no other alternative are close minded? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yes. All of the above, yes by definition. I wouldn't say that they all are closed minded. Some are just very, very stupid and unbelievabley gullible. [ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: Biff the unclean ]</p>

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12-12-2002, 03:24 PM	#126
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	why would someone believing in miracles be close minded in your eyes? Because you have turned your back on reality and embraced fantasy do you think by dismissing miracles and NOT believing in them is close minded? after all both are opposite positions... No more than it is closed minded not to believe in leprechauns. To believe in miracles you must close your mind to all of Western knowledge. You must close your mind to science, you must close it to reason. You must abandon rational thought and embrace magic. It really is "an insult to the majesty of the real." Do you think that the virtue of "being open minded" means believing any and all cock and bull stories that you hear? To be "open minded" means that you have the ability, when presented with new facts, to change your mind. It doesn't mean being gullible. Do you believe in "psychics?" Do you think that pieces of cardboard with pictures of wands and cups and guys in togas printed on them in four colors can tell the future? Do you think that a couple of coke bottles melted down and cast in the shape of a ball can get in touch with the dead? Do you think that the creases on your hand where it bends can tell the future? How about chicken entrails?

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