Seraphim

"Do people who see Jesus in their NDE's actually see him (even though you believe he doesn't exist)? Or do they just imagine that they see him? (i.e. is it like a dream?)"

My reply : How am I supposed to answer if I never seen him? As for whether they see him or not, I believe they are seeing "Reason to Accept Death", Lack of word here. The body couldn't support the Mind anymore - due to some injury or to some old age etc, and the Mind release itself to either enter another body (due to karma), the best way is by showing what what the Mind always wants to see ... the loved ones in the otherside, or Jesus or Muhammad. Whether such person part of the Singularity or they are truly waiting for this Mind not is not something I can answer, but this answer is my best bet.

"Are you talking about someone who is a vegetable? If so, then if I'm not conscious of what's going on (some vegetables may be) then my personality (kind of like the software) has ceased to be. But my body remains. So some aspects of me remain - my body - but the important parts - like my personality wouldn't be there."

My reply : Alzheimer patient are slowly turning into vegetable, right? So personality is something which could be corrupted due to sickness, injury and death. This fact alone could be enough to support why the Brain needs the Mind - an energy which cannot be corrupted and can be added and modified by actions of the Brain (by giving emotions and attachment).

"A lot of that would be due to genetics and their health - e.g. their reflexes, level of concentration, ability to learn, etc. Some of it would also come from the way they were brought up - e.g. earlier in life they could learn ways of dealing with situations that could be effective... those strategies could be applied to new problem areas."

My reply : Logical, but I remember correctly Mozart (or was it Beethoven? I believe it was Mozart) was about 8 - 11 (somewhere around there) when he came out with his 1st symphony. Natural Talent in action or simple strategy?

As for my skills ... I don't think it is something I could have thought of it myself consciously. If you watch a person who perform Iajutsu (Sword drawing techniques) and Kendo practice, such practise needs at least some practise before your hands get use to holding a sword. I managed to strike the target and remain in the proper posture in all three attempt to strike the target, something that surprise me and my Sensei.

"I think "disorder" is usually or always used to describe things that can be fixed... e.g. "eating disorder" (anorexia, etc), "emotional disorder", etc.
If it is permanent or semi-permanent it would be called a *disability* I think... like "intellectual disabilities", etc. Alzheimer's mostly is an intellectual disability I think - like how people with down sydrome usually are born with intellectual problems. But those with down syndrome can learn more and more things and become more intelligent but Alzheimer's just goes downhill. Just because those with Alzheimer's mightn't go to a psychologist/psychiatrist it doesn't mean they don't have intellectual problems. The thing is that Alzheimer's is very common - a large percentage of old people - and even some young people get it... cheaper people are used to deal with it. Shrinks are used when there is hope of things improving - but as I said, this condition just gets worse and worse."

My reply : So Alzheimer is consider a permanent sickness or something fixeble? Any reason why it happening? In Yin Yang Theory, they said that sickness such as this occurs when you do not have enough energy within the body to support your body fully. Sex, booze and other bad habits which drains the body of the energy will cause sickness such as this.

"I think they'd need to relearn how to communicate and a lot of their memories would still be there but some might be lost forever. Kind of like how people in physical accidents can take a long time to relearn how to walk, etc."

My reply : Is that something to do with their motor functions (hand and feet movements) or their coordination problem, or both? Would they still have memories of their past or their personalities?

"I'm saying that maybe Karma was designed by an intelligent creator rather than evolving out of nowhere..."

My reply : Nope, even in Hindusm, Hindus don't point their finger at Vishnu, Shiva or Brahma for their karma. This one evolved along with a person due to his or her own action, only thing is, Vishnu or Shiva could give the release by accepting the soul - called giving Moksha. Other than that, you have to fix your own problems.

"That's called guilt. So are you saying that guilt is actually me remembering something from a past life or something? I thought Karma just involved reincarnating into different things depending on how good you were. Smaller scale karma involves physical rewards and punishments in this life. Here you're talking about emotional rewards and punishments... I think in that example, you are partly expecting your parents or teacher, etc, to punish you, so you feel some of that negative emotion. It is like in Pavlov's experiments where the dog would salivate when the bell was rung because it was used to seeing food when the bell was rung."

My reply : Hold it, term need checking here. Karma is the name for Cause and Effect of a person. You do bad, you gonna get bad things - if not in this life, then the next, you do good, you will get good things, if not in this life then the next. So your term is correct.

As for guilt, you feel guilt when your action had violated your own principle. Just said you promised someone something but failed to deliver, that person maybe upset with you or you will be upset with yourself, thus guilt settled in. Guilt, beside Lust and Anger is one of the main reason why men willing to follow anyone as long as he or she get rid of their guilt for them. They cannot live with it, they cannot forgive themselves for it as well.

"I thought you said that Karma (or the soul??) evolved using natural selection... and natural selection requires a survival advantage in order to select things."

My reply : Nope, Karma is Cause and Effect for the Soul/Mind. The Mind evolve by stimulant given by the Brain and adds whatever useful into it's own database while the rest like emotions, attachment etc will be discarded.

"Placebos make things feel good - not bad. You're saying that karma is about guilt.... there are other reasons to explain why people get a bad feeling when thinking about something that is bad - they could be partly aware of the negative possible consequences. If they see no negative consequences (including upsetting their parents, etc) then I don't see how someone would experience guilt. There are simpler explanations than the supernatural karma explanation. "

My reply : That what I told him as well, didn't seems to register in him much though. Karma is not placebo effect since Placebo doesn't effect a person due to his action. My guess is that Karma is a system where one could try and change himself, being responsible for his or her own action since such action produce emotion such as guilt.

Seraphim

"Hey, seraphim, while masturbating today, I realised I was ELVIS PRESLEY in my past life!!! Is that cool or what?! "

My reply : Crap like this is the reason I don't bother with you in this forum or the other one.

"Even if SOUL indeed exists, there is no bullshit such as remembering your past life. All the data about your past is still stuck in your dead brain. Use common sense and see your pyschiatric doctor, kid!"

My reply : If you assume there is no soul, then there is no argument here either, nor do I have to waste time proving to you otherwise. I came to prove something and the choice is yours whether you wish to listen or leave. You have no obligation to listen to me nor do I have obligation to force you to listen to anything.

"So, you're defending God because of some annoying pesky freak?! BRAVO!!! "

My reply : No, I'm here to show you that I can post here (in battlefield terms - behind enemy line) AS you challenged me to do so.

"You didn't indicated I said Placebo VICE VERSA. How do you define an "evil' act?"

My reply : Because I have no idea what you meant by vice versa. How I define evil? No sure ... I don't define anything evil, just good or bad since sometimes, bad things can be good and good things turn out to be bad. I'm not sure if there is such thing as evil other than thoughts in a person's head.

"Is it by homosexuality you so despised? Could your get bad karma by buying tuna sandwich? How can you define "evil" which determine one's current in life? I didn't mention what I try to explain that karma can be used to justify someone's "misfortune" by saying "Hey, blame yourself, maybe you did something bad in past life". Take transvestites. I've seen enough shit Buddhists used that to mock them "Blame your innatural body on your past life, you dog". Or say that Third World children should be neglected because they must have done crimes upon humanity in past life. It's like jihad, people can use the name of God to justify injustice, like stoning adulterers to death. You can use karma to belittle people, in worst pyschological consequences."

My reply : First of all, I don't despise homosexual people, but I don't support them either. Second of all, your example of a Buddhist mocking another misfortunate person as a very stupid thing to do. He is making bad Karma for himself by hurting other people's feeling (unless he did it unknowingly as in online) and secondly, he has no idea whether he is in any better situation himself. It's like a Doberman dog calling a Bulldog "Dog" just because he is taller and much better looking dog that the bulldog.

"Dogma is not evidence. Your evidence for karma so far are your teories of NDE which can also use to justify Andrea Yates when she murdered her children. Perhaps Jesus did command her to murder her own kids? Believe me, I've read testimonies of "past life" and so far, isn't convinced."

My reply : Who is Andrea Yates?
Do you remember I asked you whether any Atheists you know who lived a proper life without anything happening bad happening to them? That question still remains active and waiting for you to answer.

"That is your personal defination for evil. Now you're trying to shove it down people's throats."

My reply : Ever heard of the word "Example"? Why did you think I used "Assume" you are a Christian in the beginning of the example?

"So, you're saying we homo sapiens, are created from evolution by miracle?"

My reply : What does Evolution has anything to do with miracle? If one need miracle to make something happen, then what is the use of Evolution and Science?

"Take colonial ants. They can have a hierachy on their own...queen ant, soldier ant, servant ant... Humans might have outstanding quality of intelligence, but that doesn't mean it's out of evolution track."

My reply : How does colonial ants and their hierachy fits into man's evolution track? I can't link it.

"Question: Do you mean that homo sapiens are the only beings capable of emotion? "

My reply : No, homo sapien are the only one who is governed by complex emotions - including greed and hatred. Have you ever seen an animal hate another? or greed after some object?

Corgan Sow

My reply : Crap like this is the reason I don't bother with you in this forum or the other one.

You bothered. Anyway, I accept the fact that this is personal experience. You still dodged the notion of green men's existence though. It is possible for one to believe in god and still believe in UFOs. But taking one and refusing another? You're believing in a more "sensible" old wives tale called "karma" and dismissed X-Files speculation of Giant Big Head outside earth.

Tell me again, do you believe in existence outside earth?

My reply : If you assume there is no soul, then there is no argument here either, nor do I have to waste time proving to you otherwise. I came to prove something and the choice is yours whether you wish to listen or leave. You have no obligation to listen to me nor do I have obligation to force you to listen to anything.

How is it I assume? How is it that your "evidence" is not assuming? I am listening, what your evidence tells of NDE still does not...well, I'll shut up and listen to the argument further.

Okay then, how does this notion of soul leads to? God? It is time to expand.

My reply : No, I'm here to show you that I can post here (in battlefield terms - behind enemy line) AS you challenged me to do so.

Finally, you did learn something here.

Don't get me wrong, your arguments are reasonably good, just inconsistent and ... still a bit wee tad on "I'm right and you're wrong" side.

My reply : Because I have no idea what you meant by vice versa. How I define evil? No sure ... I don't define anything evil, just good or bad since sometimes, bad things can be good and good things turn out to be bad. I'm not sure if there is such thing as evil other than thoughts in a person's head.

My, my. But what I read from your argument is "I make it what seems right" character.

My reply : First of all, I don't despise homosexual people, but I don't support them either. Second of all, your example of a Buddhist mocking another misfortunate person as a very stupid thing to do. He is making bad Karma for himself by hurting other people's feeling (unless he did it unknowingly as in online) and secondly, he has no idea whether he is in any better situation himself. It's like a Doberman dog calling a Bulldog "Dog" just because he is taller and much better looking dog that the bulldog.

Good. I failed to mentioned you failed to acknowledge the positive side of atheism. And that proves again as good religion can be used for benefit of humanity, the dark side is well...inconceivable. Argue about this in other time.

My reply : Who is Andrea Yates?
Do you remember I asked you whether any Atheists you know who lived a proper life without anything happening bad happening to them? That question still remains active and waiting for you to answer.

She's a deranged Christian who murdered her own five (I guess) children in cold blood. She also claimed that God told her to do the filthy job.

I merely illustrate how your ability of remembering past life is not much of a difference from a deranged lunatic who hears Allah whispering jihad to him. Sorry.

Of course bad things happen to anyone. If you want to assume it's karma, I can't do anything else. But what kind of a question is this? Bad things happen not just with atheists, but religionists as well.

My reply : Ever heard of the word "Example"? Why did you think I used "Assume" you are a Christian in the beginning of the example?

spare me the boo-hoos You assumed everything in Cari forums.

Yes, so far I'm being offensive to you, but it will go down if you tone your ego down a bit and be tolerant. Call me a hypocrite, but when you shove coal into fire, the fire gets more fierce.

My reply : What does Evolution has anything to do with miracle? If one need miracle to make something happen, then what is the use of Evolution and Science?

You indicated that the intelligence of homo-sapiens surpassed Darwin's evolution track. I though you mean his teory is crack.

My reply : How does colonial ants and their hierachy fits into man's evolution track? I can't link it.

What i meant is, homo-sapiens aren't special just because they used their brains to conquer other species of animals.

My reply : No, homo sapien are the only one who is governed by complex emotions - including greed and hatred. Have you ever seen an animal hate another? or greed after some object?

You've got to kidding me. Is that assumption or fact?

Philosoft

Come back when you actually understand the following:

1) Common theories of evolution
2) Documented differences in brain morphology between species.

<strong> Nice.

Why is Darwin himself responsible for explaining this? The Neo-Darwinist theories aren't good enough for you?

<strong> Outstanding. Now what makes this particular phenomenon "beyond the normal evolution"? For that matter, what is "normal evolution"?

<strong> Exactly what we might expect from a... wait for it... less complex brain.

<strong> Oh dear, caught unawares were we? You give weasels a bad name, Seraphim.

<strong> You haven't even made a probabilistic argument for the soul, much less a necessary argument.

<strong> Hello, is this thing on? WHAT DOES THE MIND DO?

<strong> And this has what to do with the mind?

So what does the mind do sans emotions?

<strong> You should really go tell someone about this breakthrough theory. There's a Nobel Prize with your name on it.

The next possible thing? Jews? What the hell??

<strong> I have no idea what you are talking about.

Very well, animals lack any semblance of religious behavior. My point is the same.

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Philosoft ]</p>

Seraphim

"You bothered. Anyway, I accept the fact that this is personal experience. You still dodged the notion of green men's existence though. It is possible for one to believe in god and still believe in UFOs. But taking one and refusing another? You're believing in a more "sensible" old wives tale called "karma" and dismissed X-Files speculation of Giant Big Head outside earth.

Tell me again, do you believe in existence outside earth?"

My reply : Existence of little green men and God is two different thing. If I were an alien from advance species, why should I bother with bunch of "monkey" (humans) killing each other? Why should I bother giving religion?
And YES, I do believe there is life on other worlds.

"How is it I assume? How is it that your "evidence" is not assuming? I am listening, what your evidence tells of NDE still does not...well, I'll shut up and listen to the argument further."

My reply : You assume what I say is wrong, thus whatever I said is wrong (in your mind) thus it is doesn't matter what I said because you won't bother thinking about it.
I assume you are right in your argument because in your mind, you are right from your own point of view. My role here to see whether I could show you what I see so you could understand what I see based on what you understand.

"Okay then, how does this notion of soul leads to? God? It is time to expand."

My reply : WOH! Kid, hold your horses. God can wait, we have to clear the matter of Soul first, then Essence of Heaven and Hell then go to God.

"Finally, you did learn something here.

Don't get me wrong, your arguments are reasonably good, just inconsistent and ... still a bit wee tad on "I'm right and you're wrong" side."

My reply : If I start thinking I'm wrong, then I won't be going anywhere, would I? And if I think you are wrong, then I won't bother discussing it further since no matter what I say, I will still consider you're wrong, right?

"My, my. But what I read from your argument is "I make it what seems right" character."

My reply : Yes, that is right. A starving man can steal food or money from others because he believe he is doing the right thing - no use telling him that stealing is sin since he has no other means (in term of short term means) to satisfy his hunger. Thus, he makes a wrong action right in his mind by his own chains of reasoning.

"Good. I failed to mentioned you failed to acknowledge the positive side of atheism. And that proves again as good religion can be used for benefit of humanity, the dark side is well...inconceivable. Argue about this in other time."

My reply : You also failed to mention that you didn't produce what is positive and negative side are in an Atheism and also failed to mention what characteristics are there for a Mad Atheist (in your example - Stalin), remember?

"She's a deranged Christian who murdered her own five (I guess) children in cold blood. She also claimed that God told her to do the filthy job."

My reply : If you already consider her deranged, then why do you bother with her? In her mind, her act is so hedious, that it seek to comfort itself with the most "holy" reasoning it could muster, in Andrea's case, her belief in God.

"I merely illustrate how your ability of remembering past life is not much of a difference from a deranged lunatic who hears Allah whispering jihad to him. Sorry."

My replied : There is two difference - One : I don't hear voices, I see pictures in my head and movement/kata comes naturally as it was part of me all the time. two : I don't go out and kill people, I use it to improve my own skills.

"Of course bad things happen to anyone. If you want to assume it's karma, I can't do anything else. But what kind of a question is this? Bad things happen not just with atheists, but religionists as well."

My reply : Exactly. If Karma is a placebo effect, it shouldn't affect those who doesn't believe in it, right?

"spare me the boo-hoos You assumed everything in Cari forums. "

My reply : That because in Cari, I was surrounded by people who have belief in one God or another, thus I could skip the basic part and jump straight into the main topic. Here, I cannot assume like that because I have no idea what you guys believe.

"Yes, so far I'm being offensive to you, but it will go down if you tone your ego down a bit and be tolerant. Call me a hypocrite, but when you shove coal into fire, the fire gets more fierce."

My reply : Ohhh... Now it is my Ego's fault that you going offensive, is it?

"You indicated that the intelligence of homo-sapiens surpassed Darwin's evolution track. I though you mean his teory is crack."

My reply : His theory works properly with applied to animals and plants, but when comes to humanity - it doesn't seems to fit the bill.

"What i meant is, homo-sapiens aren't special just because they used their brains to conquer other species of animals. "

My reply : I still don't understand the part with Ant heirarchy.

"You've got to kidding me. Is that assumption or fact? "

My reply : Fact. You want to try and disprove that? You are welcomed to try.

Seraphim

By Clutch:

"Anyhoo. That you would present this set of claims about the relation between the mind and the brain without knowing the difference between a movement disorder like Parkinson's, and a disease of dementia like Alzheimer's, says everything about your approach: 99% true faith, .8% urban legend, .2% typing effort.

Why not learn something first? "

My reply : Thanks for the advice.

By Kind Bud
"If I grant for the sake of argument that this is descriptive of reality, why should I, in this life, care what happens to it after I die? It seems to me that I won't be any the wiser. I'll be dead. Whatever it is that you're describing as soul that goes on to "find another body" doesn't resemble what I conceive myself to be. So I'm hard-pressed to get excited about surviving for eternity, even if I were to agree that this theology describes the actual circumstances of human existence. "

My reply : Finally! Some progress ...
Yes, this "soul" I trying to explain doesn't fit the expression of what you are in this life time when it goes into the next life, thus most of the effects you make is useless. Only thing it will carry to the next life is certain skills - those which shapes who you are in this life, your good deeds, some principles etc. If you are a painter in this life time and lived your whole life as a painter, such skills could be inherited in the next life and appear as "Natural Talents".

In Buddhism and Hindusm, the whole role of the Mind IS to stop this neverending cycle of life, death and rebirth by reducing activites which could promote bad Karma.

By Liquidrage :
"If this soul is timeless, doesn't die et al, why then does the person need to come back for their to be evidence of it? After all, you're claiming that this soul interacts with the body, stores memories on it's own and can put those memories back into the brain after a NDE. "

My reply : Soul doesn't die, the body does. Since the body couldn't function without a Soul as a driving force, it needs to hold onto it as best it could - thus by providing it with emotions and attachment. The word "Attachment" means attaching the Mind to the body by means of giving it a purpose to exist within the body itself and that is done by the Brain through emotions.

As for NDE, it is simple means the brain still has a hold on the Mind, maybe because the attachment to the world by that person is too great to leave the world. Have to remember, the only difference between a person who had NDE and a person who had Death experience is the person who had had Death experience is Dead. He doesn't come back to tell the tale - otherwise he will still be considered having NDE.

himynameisPwn

Seraphim, are you absolutely sure only humans can have NDE's? If a rat were to have an NDE would that prove rats have souls? Can you prove that rats or any other animal can't have NDE's?

Seraphim

"Seraphim, are you absolutely sure only humans can have NDE's? If a rat were to have an NDE would that prove rats have souls? Can you prove that rats or any other animal can't have NDE's? "

My reply : There is no prove in either argument simply because we cannot see what they see. Until Scientists could determine what are symptoms or bodily sign of a person having NDE and OBE is found - use of Ketamine to promote artificial NDE and OBE is one way, we cannot say for sure whether they have or not.

My personal opinion is they DO have it. Karma did state that if a human lives like an animal, he will be reborn as one, thus animals should have NDE and OBE.

Another indication also that Cat and Dogs have dreams, at least my two dogs had dreams by the movements of their paws and noise they make, so NDE is not much different than dreaming, except you do't die (most of the times) from dreaming.

Corgan Sow

My reply : Existence of little green men and God is two different thing. If I were an alien from advance species, why should I bother with bunch of "monkey" (humans) killing each other? Why should I bother giving religion?
And YES, I do believe there is life on other worlds.

Earlier: Your little green men is a fiction, NDE and OBE is not a fiction as plenty of people who has no connection to each other had claimed to experienced it.

My reply : WOH! Kid, hold your horses. God can wait, we have to clear the matter of Soul first, then Essence of Heaven and Hell then go to God.

Okey-dokey...still, we are three pages and that debate of soul haven't resolved.

My reply : You also failed to mention that you didn't produce what is positive and negative side are in an Atheism and also failed to mention what characteristics are there for a Mad Atheist (in your example - Stalin), remember?

Okey. But more work for you. I'm opening a new topic. Just wait.

My reply : If you already consider her deranged, then why do you bother with her? In her mind, her act is so hedious, that it seek to comfort itself with the most "holy" reasoning it could muster, in Andrea's case, her belief in God.

Okey, things have toned down a lot...here we go. I have to admit without Gandhi, there would be no independence for India, without Mother Teresa, I can't imagine how many humans will die like stray dogs, so credit to religion. But, you also get "God" telling people to do crazy things. Whether it's God or not, face the fact; the name of "God" can be used as a destructive weapon. I'll elaborate in my new topic, too.

My replied : There is two difference - One : I don't hear voices, I see pictures in my head and movement/kata comes naturally as it was part of me all the time. two : I don't go out and kill people, I use it to improve my own skills.

okay, no comments.

My reply : Exactly. If Karma is a placebo effect, it shouldn't affect those who doesn't believe in it, right?

I think I should stick to "unnecessary guilt" instead of "placebo vice versa".

You made a point that it doesn't bother atheists. That explains.

My reply : That because in Cari, I was surrounded by people who have belief in one God or another, thus I could skip the basic part and jump straight into the main topic. Here, I cannot assume like that because I have no idea what you guys believe.

That's great! I hope you wouldn't repeat that mistake again like in our last argument in sains and teknologi.

My reply : Ohhh... Now it is my Ego's fault that you going offensive, is it?

I'm just giving advice...

My reply : His theory works properly with applied to animals and plants, but when comes to humanity - it doesn't seems to fit the bill.

So, you mean that humanity is special and that proves what, God?

You indicated earlier that life came from a single being on earth, like the Mitochondria Eve teory, remember? Homo sapiens can only be considered SEPERATE from evolution track if they were created SEPERATELY from evolution track. And homo sapiens are a part of evolution because you've indicated they came from the same ancestor as animals.

My reply : I still don't understand the part with Ant heirarchy.

We, homo sapiens are no different. Animals might not have migrated to mars, nor building civilisations and conquer other animals, but we are still no different from them. Colonial ants are one example they can form their own hierarchi like a government; queen ant, soldier ant, worker ant, etc. In animal tribes, there are leaders and even elderly animals acting a sort of like a "wiseman", like a guru, but that is not proven yet (but I see elderly animals among them, so that is why I assume that).

You indicated animals cannot built things. Beaver dam? And you said "Well, that is not good enough", while earlier you indicated that they cannot. Please state you stand correctly and not changing your opinion when you felt that you've contradicted or when someone gave you an irrefutable rebuttal. At least you must say: "Animals cannot build or have tools just as good as humans".

My reply : Fact. You want to try and disprove that? You are welcomed to try.

There are competition which results in jealousy when male animals compete for mates in mating season.

You take a kitten away from a cat and kill it. It will tear you to shreds.

And an intresting article here:

Seraphim

By Philosoft :

"Come back when you actually understand the following:

1) Common theories of evolution
2) Documented differences in brain morphology between species."

My Reply : Thanks, I will.

"Why is Darwin himself responsible for explaining this? The Neo-Darwinist theories aren't good enough for you?"

My reply : Because I'm familiar with Darwin's work. Maybe you could give me some link to this Neo-Darwinist theories.

"Outstanding. Now what makes this particular phenomenon "beyond the normal evolution"? For that matter, what is "normal evolution"?"

My reply : Normal Evolution? I will try.
In animal world - normal evolution involves either for survival (against predators) or for food (if predator, ability to catch more prey). Cat family grow fangs, and claws and develop hunting abilities that suites their survival and this didn't change much for the last few million years, thus could be considered as Normal evolution.
In layman's term, anything an animal develops for sake of survival (whether against prey or getting food or other things) is consider to be normal evolution.

In human evolution however, you will see some branching from this normal animal standard. Human as early as 250,000 years ago begin to develop arts and argicultural. If a human is an animal and follows the normal evolution which an animal follows, WHAT is the purpose of Art? An animal could scavenge whatever it needs from the nature, it will not clear the land and cultivate the land since no other creature did before.

And development of religion as well. Atheists consider (I read somewhere) that earlier humans worship the elements because they were afraid of it - elements such as fire, wind, water and earth is considered by them as something above them. Does this is what an animal could do? fear something it couldn't see?

An leopard in the wild now will take cover under the tree when rain comes, NOT because it is afraid of the water, because it doesn't want to get wet, thus reducing it's speed (due to wet coat) not to mention the cold.

"Exactly what we might expect from a... wait for it... less complex brain. "

My rely : Acceptable.

"Oh dear, caught unawares were we? You give weasels a bad name, Seraphim."

My reply : Crows as example will catch anyone surprise. But what surprised me more is that there IS still some scientists in the world who could waste time and resources in such experiments. IF a crow does this in the wild, it can be said to have some value, but in captivity? How do you know that the crow had not imitated the scientists? Or it was using it's ONLY available options given to it? Such experiment hold no value.

"You haven't even made a probabilistic argument for the soul, much less a necessary argument."

My reply : I did explain what soul is (sentient being) and we reach the part of proving it. I'm not sure whether which part you do accept though. And while you at it, what type of "necessary argument" do you require?

"Hello, is this thing on? WHAT DOES THE MIND DO? "

My reply : Don't understand. I said the Mind's role is NOT to baby-sit the Brain but to return back to it's original energy state (highest energy state it could achieve) as it was before the Big Bang occured. So which one you didn't understand?

"And this has what to do with the mind? "

My reply : It get attached with bodily attachments, in this case, the need to be with the girl. When that happens, the Mind is clouded with desire and other more complex emotions (generated from the desire to be with the girl) thus become more and more attached to the body. And the more and more it is attached to the body, further and further it gets from it's goal of reaching an higher state of energy which is it's original purpose.

Example from above :
Girl - pretty.
You - Wanna pretty things - go for the girl.
Girl - Sees you - Accepts (generates Happiness) OR
Girl - Sees you - Rejects (generates sadness).
From one emotion, you generate more and more till your whole world is nothing but definations generated by your brain (which serves no purpose to the Mind).

"So what does the mind do sans emotions? "

My reply : What does the mind do with what emotions? What sans means?

"You should really go tell someone about this breakthrough theory. There's a Nobel Prize with your name on it."

My reply : I believe they already did a documentary on Hitler. Not sure whether it was from, one of the documentaries run by Discovery Channel about World War 1 and 2.

"The next possible thing? Jews? What the hell??"

My reply : In Hitler's example, it is better for him to hate the Jews rather than face his own limitation and failure. You can see the same examples now with the Muslims (particularly Osama bin Laden) with their so-called excuses with 9-11 Incident and their blaming it on Palestine. It is better for Muslims to blame it on Palestine, Jews and Kafirs rather than to turn around and say that they have screwed up in life.

"I have no idea what you are talking about."

My reply : I thought you asked me which part of the brain which was responsible (at least according to me) for NDE and OBE. What did you ask then?

"Very well, animals lack any semblance of religious behavior. My point is the same."

My reply : Exactly what you get from an animal with normal evolution track. I'm not surprised.