Freethought & Rationalism Archive

TomboyMom · 04-10-2003, 01:24 PM

Being a lesbian (or gay) and being an atheist are so often metaphors for each other, and experiencing both often gives me a perspective on the other. The difference, of course, is that one is emotional/sexual, and the other is intellectual/spiritual.

What you are talking about sounds very analogous to gay people who decide to live as straight, and in my experience such people do so because they hope to be happier, but usually find that they are not. Assuming that you really can decide what to believe (and I am skeptical about that, just as I am skeptical that gay people can decide to be straight), it would mean suppressing your beliefs and values in favor of conforming to the majority religion (sexual preference) even though it does not express what you really believe. What I'm trying to say is, I don't think you can make yourself believe in christianity, I only think you can make yourself act like a christian, and in the process lose much of your present enjoyment in life and comfort with yourself.

Accepting that your goal in life is enjoyment, what is most enjoyable is doing what you like and being true to yourself. Faking being a christian would not be enjoyable, because it would grate against your personal tastes.

Rene
faithless queer

Shadowy Man · 04-10-2003, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shome42
Ok, you got me, saying that I can convince myself of anything was a bit of an exagerration. More accurately, I can convince myself many things, ranging from things that are easy to believe to things that are harder to believe. It's just a question of how much work it will take to achieve complete delusion. Naturally, easier things will require less work.

I guess that is where we differ. For me, it would be far more difficult to become a believer, especially considering my professional training, than it is to live the hard life of an atheist.

Gooch's dad · 04-10-2003, 01:42 PM

Hey, shome42, this is a very interesting topic. Could you elaborate more on the problems and pain you claim go with being an atheist? I can agree there is a reduced choice of mates, certainly. But otherwise, unless you live in the deep South of the US, I can't see there being a problem. Your profile says you're in Austin--lots of people have told me that Austin is just as liberal as Madison Wisconsin (where I am). Yes, I have seen a bit of an effect on my dating life due to being an atheist, but I think part of that was due to how I approached it.

Meeting someone with whom I can have a family is a high priority for me. I used to bring up the fact that I'm an atheist right away, and that would definitely put people off. But a Catholic coworker (and good friend) explained to me why that might be the case: a lot of Christians lump all atheists together and think that we 'hate Christians' or 'think all people that believe in God are dumb'. And the fact is, there are a number of atheists that have that approach.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the idea of freedom FROM religion in the US, and the theocratic leanings of our current administration infuriate me. But a lot of Christians are also infuriated by that too.

So, my approach now is to not wear my atheism on my sleeve, especially when meeting eligible single women. So I don't believe in any gods....so? I also don't believe in leprechauns, astrology, channeling, reincarnation, and the tooth fairy. I don't advertise those lacks of belief to every new person I meet.

What about those other 'pains' you mentioned? Problems with family? Do you really have those problems? The rest of my large family is at least nominally Christian, and they know I'm an atheist. With the exception of my cult-fundy sister, I get along great with most of my family.

Problems at work? Seriously? Maybe that's another good thing about living in the upper Midwest--people here seem to have been raised with the idea that it isn't polite to ask someone else about matters so private as religious belief. I am fairly sure that quite a few of my coworkers are very conservative Christians, but we all get along well. That Catholic coworker friend of mine often plays jazz gigs around Madison with Dan Barker (yes, the FFRF guy) and from what I gather the two of them trade friendly jibes back and forth with no ill feelings at all.

As for the 'general feeling of alienation', I think Shadowy Man's question addresses that quite nicely.

-Kelly

beth · 04-10-2003, 01:49 PM

Rene
:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

It is a miserable existence trying to have faith when you have none. I bewailed constantly about how I was so very intelligent when I was a teen, but 'dumbed down' as I got older. Understand what trying to suspend your reasoning will do, I had an I.Q. of 176 when I was fifteen. Two years ago when I was again tested(for unmentionable reasons),my I.Q. was 146. I have become stupid because I had to suspend the use of my brain to justify the existence of the Christian god. I am now trying to re-establish my intellect by cramming as much into my mind as possible. My husband is very smart. He comes up with the most assinine arguments to support his belief in his god.

Listen to Tomboy Mom. I don't think it is right to lie to yourself just to fit in. If you feel the desire for some sort of spiritual connection, I recommend atheistic Zen Buddha. I even embrace some of my previous Wiccan beliefs(self hypnosis, meditation) to achieve the spiritual connect my mind desires. If you believe in God, fine, believe. But if you don't why short change the other atheists in the world. We are a precious few and we need others like us to stand for what they believe. ( I understand I sound like a hypocrite in this, but I am an activist, and one day I will be one for the rights of atheists.)

I hope I made sense...currently medicated.

southernhybrid · 04-10-2003, 01:52 PM

So, what makes you think that you'd find pleasure by spending your Sundays in church? If that would make you happy, go for it. I'm sure there are many Xians that don't really believe but like the social experience and feeling of conformity.

Or you could be just be a nice apatheist. I think that's what most people are anyway. You'd fit in very nice. Is there a god? Who cares?

Another option would be something like the UU Church or Secular Humanism. That would give you want you seem to need as well as allow you to remain an atheist.

I've convinced myself that I'm very happy as an atheist.

shome42 · 04-10-2003, 09:12 PM

Thanks for the replies all.

I think the whole "believing what you want to believe" issue is a red herring. I think the real issue is whether you should come out or pretend to be Christian.

Whenever I was a kid in school and I heard stories of Xian martyrs burned for not denoucning God, I always wondered why they didn't just pretend to believe what their government wanted. I never understood sacrificing your life for an abstract principle.

In those times the stakes were extremely high: Admit you don't believe in their God and you get burned. Behave the wrong way and you get stoned.

It's not that way anymore. In modern day America, being Christian often means that you go to church on Sundays and say your Xian if anyone asks. That's about it. Xians can behave completely contrary to Bible teachings and there are no repercussions; no one will say you're not a Xian besides fundies. Catholics in particular, in my experience, go to church on Sundays and aside from that, live completely normal lives.

So if you can get all the goodies of being a theist without actually behaving like you're supposed to, then why not do it? Further, if you're just pretending to be a theist, you wouldn't actually endure any of the associated anxiety and guilt...even more reason to just pretend you believe in God.

I could understand sticking to your atheist guns if being Xian meant you had to completely change your life, but that's not the case. Hell, you could even not go to Church. You could never read the Bible. All you have to do is say your Xian if someone wants to know. It's so tempting just to give in...

So why not pay lip service to Xianity? What is there to lose? You can still know in your mind that it's B.S. I'm thinking it's the practical thing to do...

shome42 · 04-10-2003, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gooch's dad
Hey, shome42, this is a very interesting topic. Could you elaborate more on the problems and pain you claim go with being an atheist? I can agree there is a reduced choice of mates, certainly. But otherwise, unless you live in the deep South of the US, I can't see there being a problem. Your profile says you're in Austin--lots of people have told me that Austin is just as liberal as Madison Wisconsin (where I am). Yes, I have seen a bit of an effect on my dating life due to being an atheist, but I think part of that was due to how I approached it.

Meeting someone with whom I can have a family is a high priority for me. I used to bring up the fact that I'm an atheist right away, and that would definitely put people off. But a Catholic coworker (and good friend) explained to me why that might be the case: a lot of Christians lump all atheists together and think that we 'hate Christians' or 'think all people that believe in God are dumb'. And the fact is, there are a number of atheists that have that approach.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the idea of freedom FROM religion in the US, and the theocratic leanings of our current administration infuriate me. But a lot of Christians are also infuriated by that too.

So, my approach now is to not wear my atheism on my sleeve, especially when meeting eligible single women. So I don't believe in any gods....so? I also don't believe in leprechauns, astrology, channeling, reincarnation, and the tooth fairy. I don't advertise those lacks of belief to every new person I meet.

What about those other 'pains' you mentioned? Problems with family? Do you really have those problems? The rest of my large family is at least nominally Christian, and they know I'm an atheist. With the exception of my cult-fundy sister, I get along great with most of my family.

Problems at work? Seriously? Maybe that's another good thing about living in the upper Midwest--people here seem to have been raised with the idea that it isn't polite to ask someone else about matters so private as religious belief. I am fairly sure that quite a few of my coworkers are very conservative Christians, but we all get along well. That Catholic coworker friend of mine often plays jazz gigs around Madison with Dan Barker (yes, the FFRF guy) and from what I gather the two of them trade friendly jibes back and forth with no ill feelings at all.

As for the 'general feeling of alienation', I think Shadowy Man's question addresses that quite nicely.

-Kelly

Gooch's dad,

I don't have any pain from being an atheist because I haven't really told anyone I'm an atheist. I've told a few good friends but that's about it.

I'm only speculating that being an atheist could lead to problems in the future. Right now I'm extremely happy. I feel like I'm a lot more content than when I was a theist.

I'm really worried about the potential mate thing. I don't believe in the "soul mate," "one true love" or anything like that. I just believe in statistics. Everyone has a certain % of the population that they mesh well enough with to be married. How large that % is depends on your looks, your personality, your interests etc. and, of course, your religous compatability. By throwing out most of the population by admitting I'm an atheist, I'm making my % of the population that I could marry extremely small. In short, I'm
making finding a mate exponentially more difficult for myself by publically being an atheist.

When I was speaking of problems and pain of being an atheist, I wasn't really talking about myself. I was speaking more in general. I'm lucky in that I have a pretty liberal Xian family and live in a large city. I was more speaking for those who aren't so lucky.

AspenMama · 04-10-2003, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shome42
So why not pay lip service to Xianity? What is there to lose? You can still know in your mind that it's B.S. I'm thinking it's the practical thing to do...

You could lose your self-respect.

More, dishonesty has never made me happy. Making it a general policiy to not respect others enough to be truthful with them would make for a miserable existance. True happiness comes from the ability to think freely, to search for knowledge, to share that with others. True happiness comes from working hard at something and finding your bit of success or expertise. It comes from knowing that you are leaving your mark on the world by helping someone else to find happiness. There are no "goodies" to being a theist-- only a bag of false hopes. If you want to find the love of your life, dishonesty is a sorry way to begin and end...

Koyaanisqatsi · 04-10-2003, 09:57 PM

I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. You claim to be a hedonist and then suggest that convincing yourself that you're something that you're not is a way to pleasure.

What?

Hedonism is about being true to yourself and throwing off the restraints that cults like christianity necessarily impose (even the liberal ones).

Do you mean you'd find it pleasurable to fool other christians into thinking that you're a member of their cult?

How long do you think that would last? A week? A month? A year? Seems like a tremendously pointless effort in order to be a wolf in sheep's clothing, akin to pretending you're a recovering alcoholic in order to hit on chicks at the AA meetings.

What pleasure do you think pretending to be a cult member will provide?

shome42 · 04-10-2003, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi
I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. You claim to be a hedonist and then suggest that convincing yourself that you're something that you're not is a way to pleasure.

What?

Hedonism is about being true to yourself and throwing off the restraints that cults like christianity necessarily impose (even the liberal ones).

Do you mean you'd find it pleasurable to fool other christians into thinking that you're a member of their cult?

How long do you think that would last? A week? A month? A year? Seems like a tremendously pointless effort in order to be a wolf in sheep's clothing, akin to pretending you're a recovering alcoholic in order to hit on chicks at the AA meetings.

What pleasure do you think pretending to be a cult member will provide?

I apologise for the confusion...

As I said a couple of posts up, the delusion thing isn't really the issue. The real issue is coming out or not. Most people can't relate to truly convincing themselves of their own B.S., so it's best to just ignore that aspect.

"What pleasure do you think pretending to be a cult member will provide?"

It doesn't really provide pleasure. It just exempts you from the pain of being an atheist in a theistic country. You are spared from minority status.

04-10-2003, 01:24 PM	#11
TomboyMom Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,931	a lesbian perspective Being a lesbian (or gay) and being an atheist are so often metaphors for each other, and experiencing both often gives me a perspective on the other. The difference, of course, is that one is emotional/sexual, and the other is intellectual/spiritual. What you are talking about sounds very analogous to gay people who decide to live as straight, and in my experience such people do so because they hope to be happier, but usually find that they are not. Assuming that you really can decide what to believe (and I am skeptical about that, just as I am skeptical that gay people can decide to be straight), it would mean suppressing your beliefs and values in favor of conforming to the majority religion (sexual preference) even though it does not express what you really believe. What I'm trying to say is, I don't think you can make yourself believe in christianity, I only think you can make yourself act like a christian, and in the process lose much of your present enjoyment in life and comfort with yourself. Accepting that your goal in life is enjoyment, what is most enjoyable is doing what you like and being true to yourself. Faking being a christian would not be enjoyable, because it would grate against your personal tastes. Rene faithless queer

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

04-10-2003, 01:42 PM	#13
Gooch's dad Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Madison WI USA Posts: 3,508	Hey, shome42, this is a very interesting topic. Could you elaborate more on the problems and pain you claim go with being an atheist? I can agree there is a reduced choice of mates, certainly. But otherwise, unless you live in the deep South of the US, I can't see there being a problem. Your profile says you're in Austin--lots of people have told me that Austin is just as liberal as Madison Wisconsin (where I am). Yes, I have seen a bit of an effect on my dating life due to being an atheist, but I think part of that was due to how I approached it. Meeting someone with whom I can have a family is a high priority for me. I used to bring up the fact that I'm an atheist right away, and that would definitely put people off. But a Catholic coworker (and good friend) explained to me why that might be the case: a lot of Christians lump all atheists together and think that we 'hate Christians' or 'think all people that believe in God are dumb'. And the fact is, there are a number of atheists that have that approach. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the idea of freedom FROM religion in the US, and the theocratic leanings of our current administration infuriate me. But a lot of Christians are also infuriated by that too. So, my approach now is to not wear my atheism on my sleeve, especially when meeting eligible single women. So I don't believe in any gods....so? I also don't believe in leprechauns, astrology, channeling, reincarnation, and the tooth fairy. I don't advertise those lacks of belief to every new person I meet. What about those other 'pains' you mentioned? Problems with family? Do you really have those problems? The rest of my large family is at least nominally Christian, and they know I'm an atheist. With the exception of my cult-fundy sister, I get along great with most of my family. Problems at work? Seriously? Maybe that's another good thing about living in the upper Midwest--people here seem to have been raised with the idea that it isn't polite to ask someone else about matters so private as religious belief. I am fairly sure that quite a few of my coworkers are very conservative Christians, but we all get along well. That Catholic coworker friend of mine often plays jazz gigs around Madison with Dan Barker (yes, the FFRF guy) and from what I gather the two of them trade friendly jibes back and forth with no ill feelings at all. As for the 'general feeling of alienation', I think Shadowy Man's question addresses that quite nicely. -Kelly

04-10-2003, 01:49 PM	#14
beth Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: where orange blossoms bloom... Posts: 1,802	Rene :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy It is a miserable existence trying to have faith when you have none. I bewailed constantly about how I was so very intelligent when I was a teen, but 'dumbed down' as I got older. Understand what trying to suspend your reasoning will do, I had an I.Q. of 176 when I was fifteen. Two years ago when I was again tested(for unmentionable reasons),my I.Q. was 146. I have become stupid because I had to suspend the use of my brain to justify the existence of the Christian god. I am now trying to re-establish my intellect by cramming as much into my mind as possible. My husband is very smart. He comes up with the most assinine arguments to support his belief in his god. Listen to Tomboy Mom. I don't think it is right to lie to yourself just to fit in. If you feel the desire for some sort of spiritual connection, I recommend atheistic Zen Buddha. I even embrace some of my previous Wiccan beliefs(self hypnosis, meditation) to achieve the spiritual connect my mind desires. If you believe in God, fine, believe. But if you don't why short change the other atheists in the world. We are a precious few and we need others like us to stand for what they believe. ( I understand I sound like a hypocrite in this, but I am an activist, and one day I will be one for the rights of atheists.) I hope I made sense...currently medicated.

04-10-2003, 01:52 PM	#15
southernhybrid Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: heavenly Georgia Posts: 3,862	So, what makes you think that you'd find pleasure by spending your Sundays in church? If that would make you happy, go for it. I'm sure there are many Xians that don't really believe but like the social experience and feeling of conformity. Or you could be just be a nice apatheist. I think that's what most people are anyway. You'd fit in very nice. Is there a god? Who cares? Another option would be something like the UU Church or Secular Humanism. That would give you want you seem to need as well as allow you to remain an atheist. I've convinced myself that I'm very happy as an atheist.

04-10-2003, 09:12 PM	#16
shome42 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 1,001	Thanks for the replies all. I think the whole "believing what you want to believe" issue is a red herring. I think the real issue is whether you should come out or pretend to be Christian. Whenever I was a kid in school and I heard stories of Xian martyrs burned for not denoucning God, I always wondered why they didn't just pretend to believe what their government wanted. I never understood sacrificing your life for an abstract principle. In those times the stakes were extremely high: Admit you don't believe in their God and you get burned. Behave the wrong way and you get stoned. It's not that way anymore. In modern day America, being Christian often means that you go to church on Sundays and say your Xian if anyone asks. That's about it. Xians can behave completely contrary to Bible teachings and there are no repercussions; no one will say you're not a Xian besides fundies. Catholics in particular, in my experience, go to church on Sundays and aside from that, live completely normal lives. So if you can get all the goodies of being a theist without actually behaving like you're supposed to, then why not do it? Further, if you're just pretending to be a theist, you wouldn't actually endure any of the associated anxiety and guilt...even more reason to just pretend you believe in God. I could understand sticking to your atheist guns if being Xian meant you had to completely change your life, but that's not the case. Hell, you could even not go to Church. You could never read the Bible. All you have to do is say your Xian if someone wants to know. It's so tempting just to give in... So why not pay lip service to Xianity? What is there to lose? You can still know in your mind that it's B.S. I'm thinking it's the practical thing to do...

04-10-2003, 09:57 PM	#19
Koyaanisqatsi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Yes, I have dyslexia. Sue me. Posts: 6,508	I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. You claim to be a hedonist and then suggest that convincing yourself that you're something that you're not is a way to pleasure. What? Hedonism is about being true to yourself and throwing off the restraints that cults like christianity necessarily impose (even the liberal ones). Do you mean you'd find it pleasurable to fool other christians into thinking that you're a member of their cult? How long do you think that would last? A week? A month? A year? Seems like a tremendously pointless effort in order to be a wolf in sheep's clothing, akin to pretending you're a recovering alcoholic in order to hit on chicks at the AA meetings. What pleasure do you think pretending to be a cult member will provide?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.