BibleBelted

WJ,

Last Word!

(really Brighid I can quit anytime)

Mageth

...wait for Megath to reply. He's the only one who's getting it right.

My reply ....

WJ

Megath!

Oh well, I guess God is a necessary being for the weak minded atheist like you, who refuses to test whether there exists any true propositions. You were almost there, how come you stopped?

Don't be scared, it won't bite you.

Walrus

Mageth

It's a little known fact that the tan became popular in what is known as the Bronze Age.

DarkBronzePlant

E_muse, where the hell did you go? At least I was having a sensical conversation with you...

Easy Be

I was wondering the same thing.
Where did you go E_muse?

not brainwashed

Instead of calling followers of a religion "weak minded", I tend to think they just don't believe they are in control of their own destiny. They grow up wanting someone else to make decisions for them and it is much easier if they can base them on some religious belief or rule. Someone (usually a religious leader) has to tell them 'right from wrong' based on some religious belief.
Whereas, I have no problem being a non believer; I go about my life treating others with the respect I wish for myself. I live each day knowing that I could die for any reason at any time - just being in the wrong place at the wrong time and it is nothing more than fate. I know that that is then the end, and I will be happy that I lived a full life and expect nothing more.

[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: not brainwashed ]</p>

E_muse

Apologies. Usual case of being busy! I intend to respond to your replies... and thank you.. I take your comments as a compliment!

E_muse

Hello DarkBronzePlant:

Indeed not. And many theists have been demonstratively strong minded. In fact.. to believe something that you know most people will find foolish requires a strength of character I feel.

I think we are in agreement on this. You've essentially said what I was trying to say only probably more clearly!

God becomes a coping strategy?

There is a need to say here, with sensitivity, that death has a sting to it and to deny this would be to deny much human experience.

For some, believing in God offers comfort whilst others cope in others ways. However, we all have to cope and live through such experiences.. I know!

However, I don't find the idea that you cease to exist at death at all threatening. Not existing before wasn't!!

Indeed, as I have argued, some theists did not believe in God for that reason, most notably the Sadducess.

Also, if you believe in a God who punishes, the idea of eternal life (as eternal punishment) offers little comfort.

This opens up a whole can of worms! Is living forever Good News!

I was really trying to find out the position of the opening poster.

I did this by suggesting that you cannot dismiss something because it is only a subjective experience.. starting at ground zero if you like.

However, there are subjective experiences that we sense relate to an external reality and subjective experiences that we sense only exist in the mind .. such as thought.

The problem comes when we try and argue that experiences that we preceive to only exist in the brain have an external element.

Here I would agree.. and expand on it to say that I think that many people believe in God for the wrong reasons.

It seems pointless to believe in a God that has no bearing on your external world.. he allows you to cope with death but nothing more.

Many western Christians are apathetic. They believe in God for the comfort that such a belief brings but avoid or rationalize away many of the more challenging aspects of the gospel.. the need to forgive, to love enemies.. and so on.

It is little wonder that they are not taken seriously.

I absolutely and wholeheartedly agree!

Thank you. And I shall respond.. honestly!

DarkBronzePlant

Hello! Welcome back! Although I understand that "too busy to reply" thing. Myself, I hope to reply to you then bug off for awhile to finish a project that's due at the end of the day...
Ah, but here you are giving a nod to the cranial capabilities of atheists! In this day and age, and in a society such as ours, whose beliefs do most people find foolish?
Okay, we agree there.
Yes, fvery much so, for many people (again, not all theists, but many.)
Agreed.
Ditto.
I don't find it threatening either; a little sad, perhaps. But then, we're not necessarily talking about you and I in particular.
And I am certainly not arguing against that, emphasis on some theists.
But then, Christians can supposedly take joy in the fact that they are not going to be punished by their "most merciful" god, no?
Do you mean living forever as in spending eternity in heaven? I'd say in general, yes, it would be. We can nitpick about "oh, do I really want to sit around and play a harp all day?", or ponder such things as "Well, my idea of heaven is to be able to bang Jessica Alba all day, but certainly that wouldn't be her idea of heaven, so how do we reconcile that?", but I think in general, that notion that your earthly death doesn't mean that you truly die, but rather live on in a state of complete happiness and no suffering is a desirable one to most people.

Or do you mean living forever as in: would most people rather live on earth forever... but they can't, so they cling to the god/heaven notion instead? That's actually an interesting question. Because I think that most people really would want to be immortal. For most, the idea of their own death--or the death of their loved ones--is scary, or at least sad. But then if you would ask people flat out if they'd want to live their existing lives forever here on earth, I think most people would say "no." Again, this is all just a hunch of mine, but I think there would be a big contradiction there.

So tying that back into reasons why some people believe in god as a savior, I think it's more to address the fear of dying, rather than as a promise of immortality. A subtle, but important, difference.

Okay, I'll let Easy_Be answer, then.
I'm not sure why you can't. Because remember, we're not discussing the existence of something abstract or intangible, like "thought". We're discussing the existence of some being that allegedly exists all on its own, that not only controls the entire world but also physically created it. I see nothing wrong, and everything right, with dismissing the existence of such a being if such a being is "only a subjective experience."
Sense how?
Again...
Again, exactly my point.

Okay, we agree on all-of-the-above.
And I wouldn't say that such Christians who latch on to god as a coping mechanism believe that there are no other benefits to believing in god. But it is one of the strongest promises of Christianity.
That's a good observation. And sometimes I am glad that most western Christians are apethetic, because there certainly are other things besides "the need to forgive" and "to love enemies" that they rationalize away (child abuse, punishment by death for a whole slew of crimes, etc.) Although I strongly dislike a hypocrite, in this case, I think the alternative would be worse. But I digress...

Well, I am glad you do. I am so tired of hearing the argument of "well, for some people god actually does exist, simply because they believe it is true." No no no no no!!! As much as my friend used to believe that his Toyota MR2 was the fastest car on the planet (and he truly did, I think) that did not make it true. As much as my nephew might truly believe that there is a Santa Claus, that doesn't make it true. Etc, etc. But I guess I am preaching to the choir here...
Glad you did!